Starfleet officers do morally questionable things all the time. It's a pretty recurring trope. That doesn't make it dystopian.
Voyager fans.. are you disappointed about Discovery?
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There’s morally questionable, and there’s a war crime.
Tbh Trek is always a post-dystopia rather than an outright utopia, but DSC is not a shiny future as shown, one way or the other. That’s changing.
Neither is Discovery. It is a fact though that TOS was violent, the red shirt deaths became a meme for a reason, entire straship crews perished because space was dangerous, they killed a groom on his wedding day etc.. Star Trek prides itself for often finding peaceful solutions but just as often Kirk would punch his way out of a dangerous situation.
Nobody has to like Discovery but saying that it's not for TOS fans because of violence, death and darkness feels disingenious. TOS was plenty dark, they just tended to end the episodes with a hearty laugh after hundreds of people died.
Neither was TOS. There was still war, poverty and disease. Those problems were largely being addressed by future tech, hence the optimism about the future. Discovery is hardly unique in its approach.
Go back and watch TOS again. There's plenty of horror and darkness, with many episodes ending on tragic notes. Poor disfigured Vina is left behind on Talos IV. Kirk is forced to kill his best friend who is driven mad by power. McCoy discovers his lost love has been replaced by a Salt Vampire. Charlie X is banished from humanity. A young newlywed is killed in battle only hours after his wedding, leaving his young widow bereft. Nurse Chapel discovers her fiancee has become a ruthless android. Kirk falls for the troubled daughter of a genocidal war criminal, only to see her collapses into madness. An entire planet is destroyed by agonizing neural parasites, including Kirk's brother and sister-in-law. Kirk has to throw Edith Keeler under a bus. The Federation's greatest computer genius has a nervous breakdown. Most of Kirk's heroes turn out to be insane or deluded or evil. Poor Zarabeth is doomed to live out her life in icy solitude . . . .
And that's just off the top of my head!
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I'm a Voyager fan. Why would I be disappointed in Discovery? Which I'm not, by the way. I'm a fan of this show, as well.
As for "The Orville", it's a decent show. I simply don't regard it as highly as I do any of the Trek shows. That's all. To me, it's like the TNG-DS9-VOY era at its most bland, but with the occasional raunchy joke.
As for "The Orville", it's a decent show. I simply don't regard it as highly as I do any of the Trek shows. That's all. To me, it's like the TNG-DS9-VOY era at its most bland, but with the occasional raunchy joke.
Believe me I watch TOS a lot and it is nowhere near as dreary as Discovery is. They pick themselves up and boldly go onto their next adventure.Go back and watch TOS again. There's plenty of horror and darkness, with many episodes ending on tragic notes. Poor disfigured Vina is left behind on Talos IV. Kirk is forced to kill his best friend who is driven mad by power. McCoy discovers his lost love has been replaced by a Salt Vampire. Charlie X is banished from humanity. A young newlywed is killed in battle only hours after his wedding, leaving his young widow bereft. Nurse Chapel discovers her fiancee has become a ruthless android. Kirk falls for the troubled daughter of a genocidal war criminal, only to see her collapses into madness. An entire planet is destroyed by agonizing neural parasites, including Kirk's brother and sister-in-law. Kirk has to throw Edith Keeler under a bus. The Federation's greatest computer genius has a nervous breakdown. Most of Kirk's heroes turn out to be insane or deluded or evil. Poor Zarabeth is doomed to live out her life in icy solitude . . . .
And that's just off the top of my head!
Just like Chevy Chase.Believe me I watch TOS a lot and it is nowhere near as dreary as Discovery is. They pick themselves up and boldly go onto their next adventure.
It's all opinion of course, I mean no one has to filter their appreciation of any of Trek only the one way! Much of how I evaluate my experience of TOS or Discovery or Voyager is how it makes me feel afterwards. It's interesting to see how the fans track in their reactions. For me as a Voyager fan I had an initial disappointment the new version was a prequel but as a fan in general I think Discovery has a long way to go to capture the spirit of Trek. I will be watching and hoping for that in Season 2.
Fair enough. I just find that some modern fans tend to remember TOS as more "utopian" than it actually was, especially when comparing it to, say, DISCO or the reboot movies.
I swear, if "City on the Edge of Forever" aired for the first time today, half the internet would complain that it was too dark or downbeat for STAR TREK.
"Where is the hope? The optimism? What about Gene's vision?"
And don't get me started on the New York Post reporter who insisted that TOS was "non-violent."
Come again?
I swear, if "City on the Edge of Forever" aired for the first time today, half the internet would complain that it was too dark or downbeat for STAR TREK.
"Where is the hope? The optimism? What about Gene's vision?"
And don't get me started on the New York Post reporter who insisted that TOS was "non-violent."
Come again?
Fair enough. I just find that some modern fans tend to remember TOS as more "utopian" than it actually was, especially when comparing it to, say, DISCO or the reboot movies.
I swear, if "City on the Edge of Forever" aired for the first time today, half the internet would complain that it was too dark or downbeat for STAR TREK.
"Where is the hope? The optimism? What about Gene's vision?"
And don't get me started on the New York Post reporter who insisted that TOS was "non-violent."
Come again?
TOS had the occasional silly episode that would get crazy. Like the one with the Androids when they end up doing things that are borderline insane. Or the one with the tribbles.
It occurs to me too that this thread was started a year plus ago. We've had a chance to watch Discovery now, both fans that come to this board more often and those who don't. I tend to think of each forum having its own 'identity' so it's interesting to read reaction whatever form it takes. Some are disappointed and others not. It's all good.Fair enough. I just find that some modern fans tend to remember TOS as more "utopian" than it actually was, especially when comparing it to, say, DISCO or the reboot movies.
I swear, if "City on the Edge of Forever" aired for the first time today, half the internet would complain that it was too dark or downbeat for STAR TREK.
"Where is the hope? The optimism? What about Gene's vision?"
And don't get me started on the New York Post reporter who insisted that TOS was "non-violent."
Come again?
About TOS for me it will always be a tad campy. The production values take the sting out of well, death and destruction. I can't help it. I shrug it off. I don't think I could ever see it overly realistically. It's adventure. If those same stories were told with the uniforms, tone and realism of current production I might feel differently... though I really do think Kirk, Spock and Bones and the actors brought with them a level of humanity that included likeability. Just as the Voyager family were likeable (to me).
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Personally, I haven't fallen in love with Discovery. That said, I can appreciate that the writers are trying something different with Star Trek. All the series in the franchise can be different, and I can accept that they don't all need to be produced to appease me. Let them be different. Make lots of stories that are new and unique.
There were many times in which TOS embraced the irrational of the human psyche. In one episode, Kirk decides he can't live without his impulsive, violent half. In another, after he watches his friend's guilt-driven suicide, decides he must do as his friend to save the day. And in another, we see that the price for Spock's usual reserve and clarity of thought is intense sexual insanity.
This could be a generational thing. Growing up, I never perceived TOS as campy. I often found it scary and disturbing--in a good way--just like THE TWILIGHT ZONE or THE OUTER LIMITS. The Gorn and the Horta and even Gorgan the Friendly Angel were genuinely threatening by 1960s standards.
And even today, I like to think that eps like "Balance of Terror" and "Conscience in the King" still pack a punch and don't come off nearly as campy or dated as, say, an old episode of BUCK ROGERS or CHARLIE'S ANGELS.
I think the first time Star Trek ever disturbed me was when that worm thing was put in Chekov's ear. That was some good writing because I challenge any fan not to have got the creeps from that! It was like when I was a child I really thought if you swallowed an apple seed a tree would grow out of you 
There are still a number of episodes that really get tome in a good way. The ending of "Balance of Terror" is hands down one of the most somber notes in Trek history. Light and fun? Just watch that scene.
Fair enough. I just find that some modern fans tend to remember TOS as more "utopian" than it actually was, especially when comparing it to, say, DISCO or the reboot movies.
I swear, if "City on the Edge of Forever" aired for the first time today, half the internet would complain that it was too dark or downbeat for STAR TREK.
"Where is the hope? The optimism? What about Gene's vision?"
And don't get me started on the New York Post reporter who insisted that TOS was "non-violent."
Second this. Once the conflict b/w Federation and Dominion started in DS9 (the last three seasons or so), the show took a darker turn as the realities of war and its costs to DS9 personnels set in. Yet these seasons were arguably the best seasons within the series, perhaps because they showed despite going through a dark and turbulent challenge from a ruthless alien - which killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Federation officers and citizens - its ideas persisted and finally prevailed.
