Spoilers Season 2 Trailer

[Tuskin38]

Perhaps you should consider taking a break to calm down.

Funny, I was going to say the same thing to you.

I’m not the one who’s been arguing about basically nothing for the last 3 pages. I have nothing to calm down from.

 

[DSG2k]

Funny, I was going to say the same ruing to youz

I daresay your incoherent typing proves the point. I am going to mute you for awhile now to help your blood pressure. Ta-ta.

 

[Tuskin38]

I daresay your incoherent typing proves the point. I am going to mute you for awhile now to help your blood pressure. Ta-ta.

I’m on mobile, typos are bound to happen.

Also I wasn’t aware that typing was bad for your blood pressure.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

That's possible, but it is as possible that no institutional racism was involved and that it was all internal decision-making of Spock's.

In ST09, there was clear institutional racism afoot regarding Spock's status. This is obviously an alternate reality and need not *necessarily* be definitive evidence, but it does dovetail strongly with the portrayal of Spock's youth in TAS and the repeated demonstrations of anti-human bias seen among Vulcans in multiple Trek series, including DSC. And it comes from a sequence that was even visually referenced by DSC. Ergo, I find it far more likely than not that prime Spock faced essentially the same blatant racism as Kelvin Spock and that this also was a major driving force in his decision to reject the Vulcan Science Academy/Expeditionary Force.

 

[Tuskin38]

Season 1 has also added to Spock and Sarek’s relationship.

 

[fireproof78]

I daresay your incoherent typing proves the point. I am going to mute you for awhile now to help your blood pressure. Ta-ta.

Was that necessary?

In ST09, there was clear institutional racism afoot regarding Spock's status. This is obviously an alternate reality and need not *necessarily* be definitive evidence, but it does dovetail strongly with the portrayal of Spock's youth in TAS and the repeated demonstrations of anti-human bias seen among Vulcans in multiple Trek series, including DSC. And it comes from a sequence that was even visually referenced by DSC. Ergo, I find it far more likely than not that prime Spock faced essentially the same blatant racism as Kelvin Spock and that this also was a major driving force in his decision to reject the Vulcan Science Academy/Expeditionary Force.

I tend to lean the same way. Vulcans are not as unbiased as they seemed to be viewed, and Spock's childhood was hardly a pleasant one.

 

[DSG2k]

Was that necessary?

Why was that question necessary?

I tend to lean the same way.

Gents, this is how it starts. "With the first link, the chain is forged," et cetera. As soon as you start allowing other universes to leak into yours, your distance from the center starts to build.

Just to give you an outside context example . . . many years ago it was wrongly believed that the Star Wars Expanded Universe formed a lesser canon to the Lucas films. Of course, such "canon unless contradicted" thinking really meant that the lesser canon could alter the primary canon at a whim. After all, the Lucas movies didn't explicitly say there was no Klingon War in the 2250's, right?

The resulting belief system of these "EU Completists" was completely off-the-wall in story, concept, tech, history, and all because Lucas cared not a lick about the EU's storylines or quaint notions about Star Wars. You literally could not watch Star Wars and get anything out of it that resembled what they thought, and they must've watched it with sone sort of live mental editing just to ignore what contradicted them.

I dug in to all the quotes that had anything to do with canon and reasoned them all out together, finding that there were two canons . . . the Lucas canon and the EU canon. And soon enough, out came quotes where Lucas referred to the EU as a parallel universe, and so on, and when Lucas made The Clone Wars they were losing their minds as he ran roughshod over their EU-derived "facts".

After the Disney sale, even EU makers who'd been cagey as all hell about admitting the fact before would just come right out and say what the situation always was, and it was almost precisely as I had described. Now, what I fought so hard to dig up and explain and defend is common knowledge accepted by most everyone.

And yet I literally got death threats from the EU Completists over that stuff because I dared tell them that their belief system was wrong, and that the truth of Star Wars "reality" was not as they described, sullied as it had been by their acceptance of universe leaks. Frankly, they would've been better off trying to understand Star Wars if they had never touched any EU at all rather than trying to untangle the mess they'd made in their headcanon.

Put simply, it is unwise to presume that any information from a separate universe applies to another without specific confirmation. For instance, in "Mirror, Mirror" Scotty reviews the ISS Enterprise systems and states they are basically identical but for instrumentation differences. That means basic Enterprise facts can go either way.

But anything else? Run.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Why was that question necessary?



Gents, this is how it starts. "With the first link, the chain is forged," et cetera. As soon as you start allowing other universes to leak into yours, your distance from the center starts to build.

Just to give you an outside context example . . . many years ago it was wrongly believed that the Star Wars Expanded Universe formed a lesser canon to the Lucas films. Of course, such "canon unless contradicted" thinking really meant that the lesser canon could alter the primary canon at a whim. After all, the Lucas movies didn't explicitly say there was no Klingon War in the 2250's, right?

The resulting belief system of these "EU Completists" was completely off-the-wall in story, concept, tech, history, and all because Lucas cared not a lick about the EU's storylines or quaint notions about Star Wars. You literally could not watch Star Wars and get anything out of it that resembled what they thought, and they must've watched it with sone sort of live mental editing just to ignore what contradicted them.

I dug in to all the quotes that had anything to do with canon and reasoned them all out together, finding that there were two canons . . . the Lucas canon and the EU canon. And soon enough, out came quotes where Lucas referred to the EU as a parallel universe, and so on, and when Lucas made The Clone Wars they were losing their minds as he ran roughshod over their EU-derived "facts".

After the Disney sale, even EU makers who'd been cagey as all hell about admitting the fact before would just come right out and say what the situation always was, and it was almost precisely as I had described. Now, what I fought so hard to dig up and explain and defend is common knowledge accepted by most everyone.

And yet I literally got death threats from the EU Completists over that stuff because I dared tell them that their belief system was wrong, and that the truth of Star Wars "reality" was not as they described, sullied as it had been by their acceptance of universe leaks. Frankly, they would've been better off trying to understand Star Wars if they had never touched any EU at all rather than trying to untangle the mess they'd made in their headcanon.

Put simply, it is unwise to presume that any information from a separate universe applies to another without specific confirmation. For instance, in "Mirror, Mirror" Scotty reviews the ISS Enterprise systems and states they are basically identical but for instrumentation differences. That means basic Enterprise facts can go either way.

But anything else? Run.

Yeah, no.

I don't judge my facts based on ideological maxims. I look at evidence and judge its effect and relevance. The evidence clearly indicates a high probability of Spock facing significant racist bs from the Vulcan insitutions.

 

[Lord Garth]

. . . or that was simply how it looked. After all, if they went to all the trouble to modify the ship secretly from elsewhere and elsewhen, why not change the registry?

I don't know. Why didn't they change the registry of the Enterprise in TMP?

 

[DSG2k]

Yeah, no.

I don't judge my facts based on ideological maxims. I look at evidence and judge its effect and relevance. The evidence clearly indicates a high probability of Spock facing significant racist bs from the Vulcan insitutions.

I disagree. All we have evidence for is children treating Spock as an outcast, plus occasional racist obsessive Vulcans like murder-guy and baseball-guy.

It's a big leap to go from some silly kids picking on someone where they think it will hurt to full-fledged racism, anyway, and as big of one to count a racist Vulcan somewhere as proof of organizational racism inherent to Vulcan institutions.

But, in this day and age, I suppose that's a common leap to make, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[DSG2k]

I don't know. Why didn't they change the registry of the Enterprise in TMP?

They didn't need to. But if they'd pulled in an ubership from an alternate universe future and that fact was to be kept secret, having NCC-74205 on the hull when your highest known NCC is 2120 kinda spills the beans, don't you think?

 

[Lord Garth]

They didn't need to. But if they'd pulled in an ubership from an alternate universe future and that fact was to be kept secret, having NCC-74205 on the hull when your highest known NCC is 2120 kinda spills the beans, don't you think?

I'm not even going to pretend to give a shit about whatever they did in ENT (not an ENT Fan here). But, even still, I was under the impression that the Defiant -- which was NCC-1764 in "The Tholian Web" -- was not Top Secret. Pronouncing yourself Empress on your future ship is not exactly being top secret.

And, over the course of 100 years, the ship was refitted. Several times probably. You have to think of the Defiant as like a Cuban car. How much of those cars from the 1950s do you think are still the original car? Not much.

 

[fireproof78]

Why was that question necessary?

Because there was no need for that personal dig. It made no sense in an otherwise ok conversation.

Put simply, it is unwise to presume that any information from a separate universe applies to another without specific confirmation. For instance, in "Mirror, Mirror" Scotty reviews the ISS Enterprise systems and states they are basically identical but for instrumentation differences. That means basic Enterprise facts can go either way.

Do to the similarities between "Yesteryear," Amanda's comments about Spock's childhood, and other details, there is is sufficient evidence to support similar experiences.

Regardless, my brain is more than sufficient enough to recognize multiple possibilities. So, I will adjust my perspective accordingly based upon what Discovery reveals. I did the same with Star Wars EU several times over.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I disagree. All we have evidence for is children treating Spock as an outcast, plus occasional racist obsessive Vulcans like murder-guy and baseball-guy.

It's a big leap to go from some silly kids picking on someone where they think it will hurt to full-fledged racism, anyway, and as big of one to count a racist Vulcan somewhere as proof of organizational racism inherent to Vulcan institutions.

But, in this day and age, I suppose that's a common leap to make, so let's agree to disagree.

The only reason that's all the evidence you have is because you refuse to consider all the evidence based on your own ideological hang-ups re the Kelvin universe and Discovery. In my opinion, ST09 and Lethe both provide relevant, direct evidence that this racism exists in the Vulcan command structure and all of this is very heavily corroborated by multiple individual examples from the various other series as well as very specifically corroborated by the entire vulcan arc from ENT.

There is enough wiggle room here for this evidence to be wrong, but the evidence is clearly pointing in one direction and not the other, so that is my default until proven otherwise.

 

[DSG2k]

Because there was no need for that personal dig. It made no sense in an otherwise ok conversation.

I'm sorry, are you painting me as the aggressor for muting a guy who was casting me as a religious nut and dismissing my posts as "incoherent ramblings" in his utterly non-constructive responses?

I mean, if you think that's "ok conversation" then that's your affair, but I disagree. I may not be allowed to return fire (too "intense"), but I shouldn't be expected to grin and bear it, so I banned him from my sight. The situation is resolved as far as I am concerned.

Do to the similarities between "Yesteryear," Amanda's comments about Spock's childhood, and other details, there is is sufficient evidence to support similar experiences.

That's all consistent childhood stuff.

Regardless, my brain is more than sufficient enough to recognize multiple possibilities. So, I will adjust my perspective accordingly based upon what Discovery reveals. I did the same with Star Wars EU several times over.

Good on you. As for me, I still cringe when I see someone touch a Vulcan, because I remember a throwaway line from some old Trek novel or other story that suggested it triggered their touch telepathy and was invasive and offensive to them. I know better, but it still happens anyway.

But, if you have a "delete" button in your head, that's awesome.

 

[DSG2k]

The only reason that's all the evidence you have is because you refuse to consider all the evidence based on your own ideological hang-ups re the Kelvin universe and Discovery.

"Ideological"? Or epistemological? I have drawn conclusions about the validity of evidence based on quotes of production staff and the clear dividing lines in the on-screen canon.

That's a point of view, not an ideology. The evidence you claim I refuse to consider is, as far as I can tell, not evidence at all. If you would like to convince me otherwise, please proceed.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sorry, are you painting me as the aggressor for muting a guy who was casting me as a religious nut and dismissing my posts as "incoherent ramblings" in his utterly non-constructive responses?

I mean, if you think that's "ok conversation" then that's your affair, but I disagree. I may not be allowed to return fire (too "intense"), but I shouldn't be expected to grin and bear it, so I banned him from my sight. The situation is resolved as far as I am concerned.

I'm not painting any one. Just observing that commenting about telling someone they are being ignored is considered bad form. But, if it's resolved, then what have you. Just came across as needless needling.

That's all consistent childhood stuff.

Yup. There is no variation to suggest that Spock's experience suddenly changed to a positive one because he got older.

Good on you. As for me, I still cringe when I see someone touch a Vulcan, because I remember a throwaway line from some old Trek novel or other story that suggested it triggered their touch telepathy and was invasive and offensive to them. I know better, but it still happens anyway.

But, if you have a "delete" button in your head, that's awesome.

I have read Star Trek encyclopedias since I was 8. I have my own head canon of events, characters, creatures and imaginings. Variation is not something to be avoided but to be embraced.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

"Ideological"? Or epistemological? I have drawn conclusions about the validity of evidence based on quotes of production staff and the clear dividing lines in the on-screen canon.

That's a point of view, not an ideology. The evidence you claim I refuse to consider is, as far as I can tell, not evidence at all. If you would like to convince me otherwise, please proceed.

"The clear dividing lines in the on-screen canon". These do not exist, imo. Your insistence that all evidence of any kind which stems from the KU must necessarily be entirely irrelevant regardless of context due to these 'clear dividing lines' is, in my view, pure ideology with no logical basis whatsoever.

The reasonable approach to considering evidence from the abrams films is to ask questions such as: is this evidence likely to have been changed due to the timeline alterations? Is this evidence contradictory to other evidence in the prime universe? Is this evidence supported by other evidence in the prime universe and, if so, to what degree? And to then base your assessment of the evidence on the results of these inquiries.

Also, your refusal to consider the clear and direct evidence from 'Lethe' amounts to blatant circular reasoning. DSC is another universe because vulcans aren't racist because DSC is another universe.

 

[Jinn]

Additionally, the Defiant 1764 was clearly different than the TOS version.

Yes, but it is also clearly different from the DSC version, so either way the Defiant was definitely modified in the mirror universe.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

It's really strange to see Spock with all that beard! I wonder if it will be permanent or just temporary.