Maybe Picard's attitude was right

[Grendelsbayne]

Difficult to see the Riker = dick side of this, too. He owes nothing to these people who disturb him at work. It's not his job to make them feel nice, not even to the degree of showing basic politeness. His job probably would be to lock them up for the remainder of the mission, optionally with some low-ranking expendable underling of his making things smoother for the captives.

Such a chaperon would be a very likely resource in his possession, on that big ship. But the problem here is that Offenhouse is not going to settle for chaperons, and is not taking house arrest too well, either.

If anything, the impotency of said house arrest is good evidence that our heroes do not think too lowly about their guests. It would probably be standard procedure to keep such intruders behind forcefields and at gunpoint if they weren't fellow humans worthy of some default trust.

Timo Saloniemi

Saying it's unnecessary to be polite to people unless politeness is part of your job is pretty much being a dick. Riker's job did not require him to be polite or impolite to them, but he chose to openly slander them on the basis on no real information at all and to be incredibly dismissive of their reasonable concerns despite him having been explicitly placed in charge of dealing with them.

 

[Timo]

Their "reasonable concerns" may have been reasonable to them. They would be irrelevant to Riker. Nobody ordered him to be polite to these people, or to treat them as anything much. They are unwanted civilians on a warship, basically half a step short of outright criminals. Perhaps not of their own doing, but that again is no concern of Riker's.

If Riker is in charge of these people, it's up to him how to treat them, really (although Picard's priorities are made clear in his phrasing of the order). Getting them out of his hair, and Picard's, would probably best be achieved by delegating the job to an underling. Except, again, Offenhouse and underlings. Being nice to them would be extremely counterproductive; Riker tried that already, to his detriment. Slapping them physically might not work. But treating them as garbage ought to work fairly well.

Except, of course, Riker never does: his slander is out of their earshot.

But what part of it is unwarranted? Offenhouse is the trio's outspoken spokesman. And all he talks about is buying his way back to a commanding position. All he talks about. Literally.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

Difficult to see the Riker = dick side of this, too. He owes nothing to these people who disturb him at work. It's not his job to make them feel nice, not even to the degree of showing basic politeness. His job probably would be to lock them up for the remainder of the mission, optionally with some low-ranking expendable underling of his making things smoother for the captives.

Such a chaperon would be a very likely resource in his possession, on that big ship. But the problem here is that Offenhouse is not going to settle for chaperons, and is not taking house arrest too well, either.

If anything, the impotency of said house arrest is good evidence that our heroes do not think too lowly about their guests. It would probably be standard procedure to keep such intruders behind forcefields and at gunpoint if they weren't fellow humans worthy of some default trust.

Timo Saloniemi

Just because Riker didn't lock them up that doesn't make Riker a nice guy. I can't recall standard procedure on any Enterprise locking up guests.Talking down to guests on the Enterprise makes Riker a jerk.
I suppose what makes Picard a jerk is that he was happy to leave his guests in the morgue. He essentially said to Beverley don't bother reviving them they aren't worth it. Perhaps he was apply a mini-Prime Directive (an indication of episodes to come) where where the inhabitants of any planet that didn't have Warp Drive weren't worth any of the Enterprise's vast resources in saving
Beverley was disappointing too. McCoy or Pulaski wouldn't have even bother asking their captain and would have just saved them. What did it have to do with the captain anyway?. Surely it was a medical decision.

This episode was a poor showing for the command team of the Flag ship who are presumably Starfleets best and brightest. Where manners and common decency should apply to everyone not just those peoples' where the Federation has something to gain.

 

[Spot261]

Their "reasonable concerns" may have been reasonable to them. They would be irrelevant to Riker. Nobody ordered him to be polite to these people, or to treat them as anything much. They are unwanted civilians on a warship, basically half a step short of outright criminals. Perhaps not of their own doing, but that again is no concern of Riker's.

If Riker is in charge of these people, it's up to him how to treat them, really (although Picard's priorities are made clear in his phrasing of the order). Getting them out of his hair, and Picard's, would probably best be achieved by delegating the job to an underling. Except, again, Offenhouse and underlings. Being nice to them would be extremely counterproductive; Riker tried that already, to his detriment. Slapping them physically might not work. But treating them as garbage ought to work fairly well.

Except, of course, Riker never does: his slander is out of their earshot.

But what part of it is unwarranted? Offenhouse is the trio's outspoken spokesman. And all he talks about is buying his way back to a commanding position. All he talks about. Literally.

Timo Saloniemi

I can't emphasise enough how much I disagree with this. Is being polite something that you only expect of people when they have an explicit duty or instructions to that effect? What exactly is the role of the Enterprise if it doesn't include humanitarian concerns? How exactly are they half a step short of being criminals? Even if they were do you not realise that even in the modern world we mostly have basic standards of behaviour when dealing with actual criminals?

They are civilians who have been rescued by the crew of a vessel whose mission profile specifically includes such activities, they aren't there of their own choosing, on the contrary the crew of the E took them on board whilst in stasis. They are unwitting civilian bystanders on a ship already full of bystanders.

Yes Offenhouse is a dick, he's scripted and played that way specifically to provide a contrast between him and Picard, to serve as the foil which emphasises the difference on sensibilities between our world and the fictional quasi utopia of the Federation, but Riker's attitude is superior, condescending and completely unwarranted.

 

[at Quark's]

Offenhouse on the other hand ....

Suppose a navy ship on a mission to investigate an unknown and potentially hostile situation today picked up a rich and influential civilian. How much could such a passenger demand? What would realistically happen ?

 

[Spot261]

Offenhouse on the other hand ....

Suppose a navy ship in a war zone today picked up a rich and influential civilian. How much could such a passenger demand? What would realistically happen ?

They weren't in a war zone, weren't under conditions of war, nor were they an outright military ship, nor could such a vessel ever encounter an equivalent scenario with someone displaced from the past. But even so, one would expect at least a modicum of professionalism from a senior officer.

 

[at Quark's]

^that's why I changed my message a bit, to "navy ship on a mission to investigate an unknown and potentially hostile situation", but apparently too late...

As for not being an outright military ship, that's correct, but it's still the closest comparison. Heck, even Offenhouse himself recognises them as such (he is talking about military jobs not being upwardly mobile or some such thing), so he was probably prepared for responses from the crew like a 'military crew' from his own day would have responded in that situation.

 

[Timo]

even if they were do you not realise that even in the modern world we mostly have basic standards of behaviour when dealing with actual criminals?

A direct comparison with these standards is indeed apt here. A police contingent sent to apprehend trespassers would not be polite by the standards you seem to be thinking of: the "standard of behavior" would merely stop said contingent from beating up the people for fun (but not from beating them up for resisting, say), or calling them names on their faces, not require it to start saying pretty please. A contingent of firemen herding a group of survivors would be entitled to some beating, too, to prevent the victims from making their situation worse. Time for politeness would come when there is, well, time.

In contrast, Riker is extremely polite in his language and manner, and even caters to some of the whims of the trespassers. It is curious he doesn't yell more at Data, who is directly responsible for the trespassing; of course, he himself was in charge at the time, and gave vague instructions at the key moment. But he certainly exercises restraint in not yelling at these invaders to a Starfleet mission and the wrong century.

They are civilians who have been rescued by the crew of a vessel whose mission profile specifically includes such activities

The dialogue reveals the heroes are under no obligation to pick up dead people. They can pick up interesting specimen, but what they picked up this time around is corpses without status. The experience is outside the basic professional framework of our heroes, and yet they behave themselves. It isn't required of them to suddenly start approving of abhorrent procedures or disgusting people in private, though.

They aren't there f their own choosing, on the contrary the crew of the E took them on board whilst in stasis.

And that gives them no extra privileges. On a warship today, Offenhouse would probably get sedated if no proper restraint were available. On Picard's ship, on Riker's watch, this does not happen.

They are unwitting civilian bystanders on a ship already full of bystanders.

What bystanders? Everybody else knows how to behave. They appear to have signed waivers allowing Picard to send them to their deaths, too, as exemplified by basically every plotline of every week. The witless folks here are in a category of their own, and would do well cordoned off into the personal space warranted by that category.

Riker's attitude is superior, condescending and completely unwarranted.

Yes, yes, and obviously not. It's good, mission-pertinent advice to the people around Riker to be aware that Offenhouse is not people, and should not be mistaken for that, despite possible appearances.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

To be honest @Timo I'm at a total loss for words here as to the way you seem to believe the world works or the values and standards our heroes are usually seen to operate by....

A direct comparison with these standards is indeed apt here. A police contingent sent to apprehend trespassers would not be polite by the standards you seem to be thinking of: the "standard of behavior" would merely stop said contingent from beating up the people for fun (but not from beating them up for resisting, say), or calling them names on their faces, not require it to start saying pretty please. A contingent of firemen herding a group of survivors would be entitled to some beating, too, to prevent the victims from making their situation worse. Time for politeness would come when there is, well, time.

No, just no, public service personnel are held to much higher standards than you are suggesting here and the fire brigade do not simply beat people to get them out of danger. Police officers are beholden to be professional and courteous, not only because that reflects well on the service but because it gets results. It's as though you have defined your concept of reality by watching dodgy TV shows.

In contrast, Riker is extremely polite in his language and manner, and even caters to some of the whims of the trespassers. It is curious he doesn't yell more at Data, who is directly responsible for the trespassing; of course, he himself was in charge at the time, and gave vague instructions at the key moment. But he certainly exercises restraint in not yelling at these invaders to a Starfleet mission and the wrong century.

Clearly we have different ideas about what qualifies as polite and restrained in a professional capacity.

The dialogue reveals the heroes are under no obligation to pick up dead people. They can pick up interesting specimen, but what they picked up this time around is corpses without status. The experience is outside the basic professional framework of our heroes, and yet they behave themselves. It isn't required of them to suddenly start approving of abhorrent procedures or disgusting people in private, though.

They are usually under no obligation to pick up whatever waifs, strays, previously unknown phenomena is pertinent to the story this week, but I never claimed they were. It is still entirely within the remit and expected norms of the service, that's how and why we have stories worth telling. Trek would be singularly boring if they just wandered by and ignored every strange sensor reading or person in distress.

On a warship today, Offenhouse would probably get sedated if no proper restraint were available. On Picard's ship, on Riker's watch, this does not happen.

Yes, yes, and obviously not. It's good, mission-pertinent advice to the people around Riker to be aware that Offenhouse is not people, and should not be mistaken for that, despite possible appearances.

I'm very glad for everyone's sake you're a chemist and not a public official.

 

[Timo]

I observe public officials at law enforcement work, though. Riker is more polite than them. They are less polite than Riker. Both are exactly as polite as need be.

And yes, oh yes, members of the fire brigade do clobber people to get them out of the harm's way.

I do wonder whether we live in the same world...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

I think you watch them on Starsky and Hutch

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The dialogue reveals the heroes are under no obligation to pick up dead people. They can pick up interesting specimen, but what they picked up this time around is corpses without status. The experience is outside the basic professional framework of our heroes, and yet they behave themselves. It isn't required of them to suddenly start approving of abhorrent procedures or disgusting people in private, though.

Your entire concept of 'appropriate politeness' is just bizarre and we will never agree on that subject, but I do have to ask this: why are the guests here automatically considered 'disgusting'? Yes, Ralph acts poorly. *Ralph* does that. Not the other two. They are not associated with him or responsible for him. Sonny is extremely friendly and easy-going and Clare is just upset at her circumstances (but makes no deliberate attempt to burden anyone else with her problems). And even Ralph's behavior is largely just irritating, not offensive.

 

[ALF]

Ok let us pretend the Star Trek 24th century past is our present.... was Picard and the Enterprise crew right to have a disdainful attitude of how humans are in our time?

Something really interesting happened in this thread where the focus of the discussion somewhat randomly (WraithDukat's post) happened to revolve nearly exclusively around the first season finale of TNG, The Neutral Zone, which is generally not thought of as the most inspired TNG story. IMHO, it also epitomizes season 1's failings in terms of sloppy pacing and character consistency - but sometimes bad Trek is more entertaining than good Trek. Depends on your mood.

I haven't closely watched The Neutral Zone in possibly a couple of decades or so I'm going to watch it tonight based on all the really intriguing points of view in this thread. In that episode specifically, I do think that they are disdainful of 20th century humans but this attitude frequently softens throughout TNG to suit the story - i.e. when Picard is appealing to Q for humanity's potential.

Additionally, I've always felt that in The Neutral Zone episode, this attitude was fairly tongue-in-cheek/meta, since it was humans from that time who made TNG happen!

 

[ALF]

From Mr. Laser Beam's post (can't quote it)

Offenhouse: You've got it all wrong. It's never been about possessions. It's about power.
Picard: Power to do what?
Offenhouse: To control your life, your destiny.​

A failing of the English language is that we don't have two words to distinguish between plural you or singular you. The way the words are written here, I genuinely feel like this might be the writer's play for ambiguity here. Does he want to control his own life, Picard's life, or the lives of anyone he can?
d) all of the above?

 

[TribbleFeeder]

From Mr. Laser Beam's post (can't quote it)

Offenhouse: You've got it all wrong. It's never been about possessions. It's about power.
Picard: Power to do what?
Offenhouse: To control your life, your destiny.​

A failing of the English language is that we don't have two words to distinguish between plural you or singular you. The way the words are written here, I genuinely feel like this might be the writer's play for ambiguity here. Does he want to control his own life, Picard's life, or the lives of anyone he can?
d) all of the above?

I think he meant it as “one has the power to control their own life or destiny”. I don’t think he wanted to control Picard’s life.

 

[Spot261]

From Mr. Laser Beam's post (can't quote it)

Offenhouse: You've got it all wrong. It's never been about possessions. It's about power.
Picard: Power to do what?
Offenhouse: To control your life, your destiny.​

A failing of the English language is that we don't have two words to distinguish between plural you or singular you. The way the words are written here, I genuinely feel like this might be the writer's play for ambiguity here. Does he want to control his own life, Picard's life, or the lives of anyone he can?
d) all of the above?

Youse, it's just not in common usage outside of specific dialects

 

[ALF]

Watched the episode late last night. it's a tough one to get through for sure. The end of Act 3 felt like the end of Act 1. I don't think Nayotarules intended for this thread to become a discussion for The Neutral Zone, but there is plenty of ugliness on display in this episode to support Picard's attitude, along with proof he feels that way: he orders security present before reviving the 3 crionics! Picard don't play. A trio of 20th century 'mobsters' show up and he has his hand on his glock!

I think he meant it as “one has the power to control their own life or destiny”. I don’t think he wanted to control Picard’s life.

Here's the scene in full:

[Guest lounge]
RALPH: I demand a phone, or a radio whatever else you have. Frankly, enough is enough. Especially under the circumstances, and considering what I paid for this procedure! I must make contact with my law
(Picard enters)
PICARD: I'm Captain Picard.
RALPH: Excellent. Now, maybe we'll be able to get some things straightened out.
PICARD: We may indeed. Those comm. panels are for official ship business.
RALPH: If they are so important, why don't they need an executive key?
PICARD: Aboard a starship, that is not necessary. We are all capable of exercising self-discipline. Now, you will refrain from using them.
RALPH: Now just a minute.
PICARD: We are in a very serious and potentially dangerous situation.
RALPH: I'm sure whatever it is seems very important to you, but my situation is far more critical.
PICARD: I don't think you are aware of your situation, or of how much time has passed.
RALPH: Believe me, I'm fully cognisant of where I am, and when. It is simply that I have more to protect than a man in your position could possibly imagine. No offence, but a military career has never been considered to be upwardly mobile. I must contact my lawyer.
PICARD: Your lawyer has been dead for centuries.
RALPH: Yes, of course I know that, but he was a full partner in a very important firm. Rest assured, that firm is still operating.
PICARD: That's what this is all about. A lot has changed in the past three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.
RALPH: You've got it all wrong. It's never been about possessions. It's about power.
PICARD: Power to do what?
RALPH: To control your life, your destiny.
PICARD: That kind of control is an illusion.
RALPH: Really? I'm here, aren't I? I should be dead but I'm not.
(Clare starts weeping)​

My read on the performance: Offenhouse smiles at the end there, he realizes that he is, for the moment anyway, the personification of Picard's lack of willingness to accept 'power' as the universal constant. What Offenhouse never realizes is that the only reason he now lives is because the Enterprise "saved" him. But I think he is using second person plural. Check out what he says a bit later on:

SONNY: Hey, now, these folks don't need us swimming in their soup, so why don't you just relax and let'em do their jobs?
RALPH: That may be all right for you, but I am not willing to allow my fate to be decided by others. I at least want to know what is going on.​

Stone cold, this guy. Does this attitude reflect a willingness to exploit or do harm to others? Is Ralph Offenhouse a malevolent character? This is Picard's feeling about people of our era. Offenhouse detects the Romulan's arrogance as he himself is a master of the craft.

Here's the ending:

[Observation lounge]
PICARD: Here's what I propose. You can't stay on the Enterprise, but I have arranged for us to rendezvous with the USS Charleston, bound for Earth. They will deliver you there.
RALPH: Then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money. My office is gone. What will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty fourth century. Material needs no longer exist.
RALPH: Then what's the challenge?
PICARD: The challenge, Mister Offenhouse, is to improve yourself. To enrich yourself. Enjoy it.
SONNY: Well, one good thing is, since everybody's forgotten everything I ever did, it'll all be brand spanking new. I'll be a bigger hit than I ever was.
PICARD: Perhaps so. Anything is possible.
SONNY: What say you, son. You'd make a hell of a sideman.
DATA: That offer does present a certain fascination.​

Included that last bit because Data easily has some of the most insightful/level-headed lines in this outing. What a perfect response. The next time someone has an idiotic/drunken/unsolicited suggestion for me, I'll let loose with That offer does present a certain fascination.

And not only that, Ralph was the one who got them out of that mess with the Romulans in the first place. So the 24th-century crew could stand to show a little gratitude.

That said, at least the novelverse has given all three of these people a decent living:
- Ralph Offenhouse is Federation Secretary of Commerce (and, before that, Federation ambassador to the Ferengi)
- Claire Raymond works for the Department of Temporal Investigations
- Sonny Clemonds is on a USO tour (or whatever Starfleet's equivalent is), performing at far-flung outposts where the Starfleet crew might need a bit of cheering up

So you see, they're not so bad after all.

Thanks, with that novelverse info the ending of the episode is a lot less of a bummer. Sonny was a bigger hit than he ever was...

 

[Paradise City]

The intention of the episode is to have a pop at Reaganite America. Earthlings, to Picard and Riker, don't like 'em to various degrees and are abrasive, prolly because they are disdainful of that period of their own history with more evil to come. Data, who hasn't that baggage is simply curious about them. Troi, as the counselor and that she identifies as more Betazed than human, is able to see past that.

Picard and Riker should see them as individuals. But the creators were more interested in hammering home how savage contemporary humanity was.

 

[Herbert]

He compared the Enterprise to a cruise ship!

That's better than comparing it to a garbage scow.

 

[Kor]

Picard and co. were condescending and "holier-than-thou" when it came to humans of our general era. If I was to be put into stasis and wake up centuries from now, I would much rather be discovered by Kirk and his crew, and be treated with dignity and be inspired rather than be looked down on.

... Police officers are beholden to be professional and courteous, ...

Too bad they never seem to remember that when pulling somebody over for accidentally going five miiles over the speed limit.

From Mr. Laser Beam's post (can't quote it)

Offenhouse: You've got it all wrong. It's never been about possessions. It's about power.
Picard: Power to do what?
Offenhouse: To control your life, your destiny.​

A failing of the English language is that we don't have two words to distinguish between plural you or singular you. The way the words are written here, I genuinely feel like this might be the writer's play for ambiguity here. Does he want to control his own life, Picard's life, or the lives of anyone he can?
d) all of the above?

Let's start a movement and bring back the "thou/you" distinction.

Kor