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Discoprise won't have TOS "cardboard sets"

It really is fucking disrespectful to run down the original that way.
It sure was disrespectful of that set wall to be so unforgiving of Nimoy lightly "falling" against it in "Charlie X" (TOS)...

charliexhd459.jpg


At least in-universe we can pretend Charlie really did throw Spock hard enough to break it (and his legs)! (And speaking of run down, it looks like it could use a wash, too. I guess unlike Picard's, Kirk's Enterprise didn't clean itself...and like Harriman's, the janitorial staff doesn't come through until Tuesday!)

Er, yes they did. The term ‘cardboard sets’ is meant as a derogatory statement. They used that term all the time in classic Doctor Who, as a derogatory statement.
In my experience of DW fandom, its use there is generally more affectionate than derogatory. (And apt, even if not literally accurate. Heck, sometimes they weren't even "cardboard"! A whole wall of the original TARDIS interior was just a painted canvas...and guess what...they didn't recreate that when they brought it back for cameos in the new show.)

As I read it, its use here is more derisive of the unfair expectation on the part of a few fans that DSC can make itself legitimately part of the same continuity as TOS only by taking its production values as literally as "Relics"/"Trials and Tribble-ations" (both of which only took that approach insofar as required to match actual footage from the show itself) or "In A Mirror, Darkly" (which took it somewhat less so, introducing a number of subtle updates—as "Trials" did too, with the elements that didn't need to exactly match existing footage—but nonetheless was meant as a similar exercise in pure fan service and nothing more) did.

"Low budget" is another thing thrown around regarding TOS, when actually, compared to other shows in the 60s, it was pretty high budget (one of the reasons it was cancelled was because of how expensive it was to make).
Yet that budget was still spread much thinner, because they had to create so many more futuristic sets/models/props/costumes/VFX/makeups out of whole cloth than a typical show of the period.

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^^^
ORLY?

Take a look at the surviving test footage from 1978 when "Star Trek Phase II" was going to be a new TV series and flagship show of the Paramount Network (but yes, the new network plan was scrapped, and Star Trek Phase II was reworked into ST:TMP)

But yes, pay attention to the sets they planned to use in 1978.
In 1978, television was still not high-def. And here is what Motion Picture art director Richard Taylor had to say about the Phase II sets and miniatures:

When we first came on the project we had to look at everything that existed and Roddenberry said, "Just use the sets that we're building and the models we are building." So, I gave the models [an] honest look but had to tell them in the end that "If you use these models and sets, you're going to be laughed out of the theatre." The models would have been embarrassing at best. They were really old school in their detail and were not built to armature and light the way we needed for motion control. They looked like the old television show. Again, Don Loos built the Enterprise and Magicam built the dry-dock and a few other things but they were building for a television movie. The resolution of television is forgiving; the big screen is not.

Nobody would ever have been able to make out the finer details (or rather, the lack thereof, because including them would just have been a waste of precious time and money) on TV. They were what they were due to being made to the requirements of the medium they were intended for, right down to the garish colors. As TMP costume designer Robert Fletcher said:

Another thing I changed was the basic color concept. The original Star Trek was brightly colored. But a lot of that came about because color TV had been recently invented and all the networks wanted as much color as they could get for their money, right away. I used to get directives from NBC to use more color. ‘We spent a hundred million dollars to invent this system and we don’t want any grays or browns.’ So I felt, and Robert Wise felt, that the brilliant color was not very realistic, that it seemed distracting. He wanted to concentrate on people's faces or the emotion involved, and bright turquoise and red things vibrating on a widescreen were not what he wanted to do.

(Of course, at the same time, they also had to take into account that many would still have been watching on black-and-white TV sets. Everything was a compromise.)

If they like the movie asthetic so much maybe they should have set it in the movie era. If you don't like the TOS asthetic maybe you should have steered clear of that timeframe rather than trying to shoehorn stuff in that simply doesn't fit.
Ultimately, it's always been up to us to make things "fit" on an in-universe level. And there's nothing more stopping us from pretending TOS "really" was more advanced and detailed than what we "saw," or was an inaccurate dramatization (or Talosian illusion in the case of "The Cage"), or indeed will still come to pass exactly as depicted through uniform changes and refits (there'd be enough time for several TMP-level ones in the span between the two pilots) and whatever other "unlikely" circumstances we can (or can't) imagine, than there ever was. All that's changed (and not really even that, because there were people who said it about TMP and TNG and ENT and ST'09 too) is that some among us don't feel like keeping up their end of the pretense anymore...for pretense is all it has ever been.

The problem is that Star Trek has evolved into this comic book-like property now where things like visual aesthetics don’t matter any more and things like settings, uniforms, technology, etc can all be rebooted or updated to meet the demands of modern audiences who either can’t handle or won’t accept visual continuity that matches the time period it’s supposed to be set in.
That's not a problem. That's just what inevitably happens in serial fiction that runs long enough to transcend its mundane origins. It's what keeps it alive and enjoyable instead of being an artifact in an archive, studied only for historical purposes. In the end, this is all to TOS' benefit, not its detriment.

-MMoM:D
 
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It sure was disrespectful of that set wall to be so unforgiving of Nimoy lightly "falling" against it in "Charlie X" (TOS)...

charliexhd459.jpg


At least in-universe we can pretend Charlie really did throw Spock hard enough to break it (and his legs)! (And speaking of run down, it looks like it could use a wash, too. I guess unlike Picard's, Kirk's Enterprise didn't clean itself...and like Harriman's, the janitorial staff doesn't come through until Tuesday!)


In my experience of DW fandom, its use there is generally more affectionate than derogatory. (And apt, even if not literally accurate. Heck, sometimes they weren't even "cardboard"! A whole wall of the original TARDIS interior was just a painted canvas...and guess what...they didn't recreate that when they brought it back for cameos in the new show.)

As I read it, its use here is more derisive of the unfair expectation on the part of a few fans that DSC can make itself legitimately part of the same continuity as TOS only by taking its production values as literally as "Relics"/"Trials and Tribble-ations" (both of which only took that approach insofar as required to match actual footage from the show itself) or "In A Mirror, Darkly" (which took it somewhat less so, introducing a number of subtle updates—as "Trials" did too, with the elements that didn't need to exactly match existing footage—but nonetheless was meant as a similar exercise in pure fan service and nothing more) did.


Yet that budget was still spread much thinner, because they had to create so many more futuristic sets/models/props/costumes/VFX/makeups out of whole cloth than a typical show of the period.


In 1978, television was still not high-def. And here is what Motion Picture art director Richard Taylor had to say about the Phase II sets and miniatures:

When we first came on the project we had to look at everything that existed and Roddenberry said, "Just use the sets that we're building and the models we are building." So, I gave the models [an] honest look but had to tell them in the end that "If you use these models and sets, you're going to be laughed out of the theatre." The models would have been embarrassing at best. They were really old school in their detail and were not built to armature and light the way we needed for motion control. They looked like the old television show. Again, Don Loos built the Enterprise and Magicam built the dry-dock and a few other things but they were building for a television movie. The resolution of television is forgiving; the big screen is not.

Nobody would ever have been able to make out the finer details (or rather, the lack thereof, because including them would just have been a waste) on TV. They were what they were due to being made to the requirements of the medium they were intended for, right down to the garish colors. As TMP costume designer Robert Fletcher said:

Another thing I changed was the basic color concept. The original Star Trek was brightly colored. But a lot of that came about because color TV had been recently invented and all the networks wanted as much color as they could get for their money, right away. I used to get directives from NBC to use more color. ‘We spent a hundred million dollars to invent this system and we don’t want any grays or browns.’ So I felt, and Robert Wise felt, that the brilliant color was not very realistic, that it seemed distracting. He wanted to concentrate on people's faces or the emotion involved, and bright turquoise and red things vibrating on a widescreen were not what he wanted to do.

(Of course, at the same time, they also had to take into account that many would still have been watching on black-and-white TV sets. Everything was a compromise.)


Ultimately, it's always been up to us to make things "fit" on an in-universe level. And there's nothing more stopping us from pretending TOS "really" was more advanced and detailed than what we "saw," or was an inaccurate dramatization (or Talosian illusion in the case of "The Cage"), or indeed will still come to pass exactly as depicted through uniform changes and refits (there'd be enough time for several TMP-level ones in the span between the two pilots) and whatever other "unlikely" circumstances we can (or can't) imagine, than there ever was. All that's changed (and not really even that, because there were people who said it about TMP and TNG and ENT and ST'09 too) is that some among us don't feel like keeping up their end of the pretense anymore...for pretense is all it has ever been.


That's not a problem. That's just what inevitably happens in serial fiction that runs long enough to transcend its mundane origins. It's what keeps it alive and enjoyable instead of being an artifact in an archive, studied only for historical purposes. In the end, this is all to TOS' benefit, not its detriment.

-MMoM:D
Very well said. :techman::beer:
 
That's not a problem. That's just what inevitably happens in serial fiction that runs long enough to transcend its mundane origins. It's what keeps it alive and enjoyable instead of being an artifact in an archive, studied only for historical purposes. In the end, this is all to TOS' benefit, not its detriment.
Agreed - my point was that it’s a problem with the “it should look like TOS argument” as the earlier poster was talking about ‘shoehorning’ DSC into the TOS era. Much as I’d have preferred DSC to suggest the TOS aesthetic more strongly, arguing for that to be so runs into problems almost straight away since Star Trek has evolved. Like the Cylons :lol:
 
That's not a problem.

Neither has it ever been a problem for the dozens of other properties that simply reboot, leaving the broad strokes in place and moving forward. Like Star Trek likely should have done twenty years ago.

Essentially, it is a rolling reboot. Nothing is that important to the narrative that stops the rolling changes that will continue to a point where TOS really is no longer part of the equation, except when something is needed to sell the newer shows.

People say the lore will remain in place, that the stories won't be changed with what we know now. Though can anyone see Pike in a rolling coffin that only beeps?
 
And, I don't think those folks realize that without those "cardboard" sets, they wouldn't have jobs on Star Trek. It really is fucking disrespectful to run down the original that way.
I think the "cardboard" reference was probably metaphorical rather than literal, a way of saying that less-detailed sets won't stand up to scrutiny in a 4K Ultra-HD world. It's not being disrespectful of what came before, it's just acknowledging the greater technical difficulties inherent to modern filming and thus the resulting need for a higher level of detail. People in the future will say the same thing about this. Some people are saying it about Discovery even now. ;)
 
I don't think using the term "cardboard sets" (even if they weren't in reality) for the TOS sets to contrast with their new sets is a problem.

The main problem is they seem to be generally dismissive of everything TOS - disregarding everything based on it's production quality, and thus missing out a lot on the thoughts that went into the design. The DIS design doesn't look like an improvement of the TOS bridge, neither in functionality nor design - it looks like a Star Trek bridge designed by someone that is unfamiliar with Star Trek.

Funnily in direct contrast to the Shenzhou bridge - which looks noting like TOS either, but is built absolutely functional and has a console arrangement that makes a lot of sense. It almost looks like they ran out of money after the pilot episode, and had to deliver an almost empty bridge for the Discovery, after they spend all the money to make the Shenhou bridge and sets.
 
Agreed - my point was that it’s a problem with the “it should look like TOS argument” as the earlier poster was talking about ‘shoehorning’ DSC into the TOS era. Much as I’d have preferred DSC to suggest the TOS aesthetic more strongly, arguing for that to be so runs into problems almost straight away since Star Trek has evolved.
Ah, I see now, thanks for clarifying. Another problem with that line of argument is that the only part of the "TOS era" DSC actually overlaps with is "The Cage"/"The Menagerie"—which, for a whole host of reasons, should by all rights be regarded as more open to having all manner of liberties taken with it than anything else, not less so. (After all, TOS itself took liberties with it...repeatedly!) Things can change a lot in the course of a decade, and sometimes quite unexpectedly so. In many ways, 1957 and 1966 stood in different and distinct "eras" too.

Neither has it ever been a problem for the dozens of other properties that simply reboot, leaving the broad strokes in place and moving forward. Like Star Trek likely should have done twenty years ago.
But Star Trek did that in 1966...and in 1979...and in 1987...and in 2001...and in 2009...and they're doing it now, too. What more do you want, exactly?

The problem with these discussions of "rebooting" is one of semantics. In context, "reboot" can mean anything running the gamut from "remake" to "revival" and all that lies in between. There doesn't have to be a clear binary choice between a clean, "hard" break with the past or a slavish commitment to it in every detail. There are all manner of "soft" reboots inhabiting a middle ground, making selective use of retcons or other narrative devices to bridge the gaps.

Essentially, it is a rolling reboot...
...and has been from the very start, is my point. When they changed props and costumes from the pilots to the series proper, nobody behind the scenes was thinking of that in terms of "oh, they issued new uniforms last year, and switched from hand lasers to phasers"; when the model was re-jigged or the engine room set altered, nobody was thinking "oh, there was a refit"; those were always after-the-fact interpretations overlaid onto it by us fans (some of whom, albeit, went on to work on later shows and write encyclopedias, etc.)

What meaningful distinction is there to be made between those adjustments and anything else, up to and including DSC? I don't see one, except in the case of the Kelvin films, where the idea was explicitly for it to be an "alternate" version of TOS history, in-story. (Note, though, that this wasn't intended as an "explanation" for all visual updates and other discrepancies, either...until later, after the fact, if even then.) Early on, ENT deliberately raised ambiguity as to whether something similar was going on there, but ultimately seemed to clarify that it was how things were always "supposed" to go.

Nothing is that important to the narrative that stops the rolling changes that will continue to a point where TOS really is no longer part of the equation, except when something is needed to sell the newer shows.
I don't follow. TOS is still very much part of the equation, and always will be, in some form. What is established therein has informed every aspect of DSC from the writing to the designing. This notion you and some others seem to have that they don't respect it and are only paying shallow lip service to it to sell the show is total bunkum.

People say the lore will remain in place, that the stories won't be changed with what we know now.
Of course they will be changed in some respects, the same way "Datalore" (TNG) is changed by "Brothers" (TNG) in terms of its characterization of the differences between Lore and Data as conceived by Soong, and then "Brothers" is in turn changed by Generations in terms of the physical depiction of the emotion chip...or how "The Best Of Both Worlds" (TNG) is changed in both sorts of ways by First Contact...and all within the same fictional continuity.

Altering how we view TOS in context, now knowing what we know from DSC, is part of the whole point of the exercise, and really should be for any prequel. What would be the dramatic value of telling such a story in the first place if it didn't shed new light, and explode some of our most deeply-held preconceptions?

Though can anyone see Pike in a rolling coffin that only beeps?
All the more reason to believe nothing we saw there was really what it seemed, and Pike was never even injured to begin with...it was all part of the Talosians' second (and this time around, successful) attempt to lure him into their captivity!;)

-MMoM:D
 
It almost looks like they ran out of money after the pilot episode, and had to deliver an almost empty bridge for the Discovery, after they spend all the money to make the Shenhou bridge and sets.
Money really isn't an issue, at least not when it comes to the sets. It looks the way it looks by design. And your point doesn't make much sense either - the Discovery bridge isn't that wildly different to other series.
 
Given what little we saw of Starfleet in TOS, it's ok that Discovery not look exactly like TOS, however the design of this show is very flavor of the month/JJ 2009 inspired (window view screens and all). The visuals don't feel like they fit in-universe and the S1 costumes were awful. The TOS inspired colors for S2 look much better. There was no need to change that, even the JJ movies were able to nail to the costuming. There's nothing iconic or unique about the ship design. We could easily be in some other sci-fi universe like The Expanse. The Klingon design was probably the worst part though. More than anything this kind of stuff takes me out of the show and makes it hard to reconcile it with the rest of Prime Cannon.
 
Shenzhou bridge was a bit more TOS then the Discovery's. It even had an astrogator.

But you also have to remember the Enterprise is about 5-10 years older then the Discovery.

Except for the railing, the astrogator, and the blinkies. And I'm still not a huge fan of having separated helm and nav consoles in the mid 23rd century.

I meant Star Trek as in the entire franchise, not just TOS.
 
More than anything this kind of stuff takes me out of the show
Not to state the obvious, but most of these changes are likely because if they didn't do them, it's take others out the show.

Talking for myself, it's the fact it looks like an actual spaceship in space, and not people on a soundstage, that drew me in initially. I find the bright colours of TOS outforms stupid, so having more realistic designs also makes sense to me. I think I'm the filthy casual type the show is being made for, and it worked.
 
Not to state the obvious, but most of these changes are likely because if they didn't do them, it's take others out the show.I find the bright colours of TOS outforms stupid, so having more realistic designs also makes sense to me. I think I'm the filthy casual type the show is being made for, and it worked.

Star Trek 09 couldn't be anymore "for the causals" and yet it maintained the TOS uniforms. The movie was a hit!

Talking for myself, it's the fact it looks like an actual spaceship

Does it though? It looks "sci-fish" I give you that. Realistically what group of professionals would work under such dim light on the bridge for months? Granted, they gave an explanation for that and Discovery is a science ship, but Seth Mcfarlane is right in that TNG/ENT-D works but it looks like a lived-in space. TOS ENT is unique. The ship design for Discovery looks basically like what I see on every other recent space fairing show. The Klingons ships looked unique for what it's worth, but the design was still an utter fail imo.
 
In my experience of DW fandom, its use there is generally more affectionate than derogatory. (And apt, even if not literally accurate. Heck, sometimes they weren't even "cardboard"! A whole wall of the original TARDIS interior was just a painted canvas...and guess what...they didn't recreate that when they brought it back for cameos in the new show.)

Or the old one, after 1972. They instead made the set smaller. And this was a TV show back in the days when TV shows were smaller budget and not one-time epic (much less competing directly against big screen films), never mind HD. DW was still TV, not film... After Star Wars, it all changed...

In 1978, television was still not high-def. And here is what Motion Picture art director Richard Taylor had to say about the Phase II sets and miniatures:

When we first came on the project we had to look at everything that existed and Roddenberry said, "Just use the sets that we're building and the models we are building." So, I gave the models [an] honest look but had to tell them in the end that "If you use these models and sets, you're going to be laughed out of the theatre." The models would have been embarrassing at best. They were really old school in their detail and were not built to armature and light the way we needed for motion control. They looked like the old television show. Again, Don Loos built the Enterprise and Magicam built the dry-dock and a few other things but they were building for a television movie. The resolution of television is forgiving; the big screen is not.

Roddenberry's vision must have been hampered by something if he demanded the Phase II sets (which feel authentic to the 60s show despite being made a decade later!) be used for a big screen epic... but that was before Phase 2 was phased out in favor of TMP. Taylor was absolutely right. And this was long before people demanded TV look as good as the big screen, which was made possible by effects technology becoming more affordable...

Nobody would ever have been able to make out the finer details (or rather, the lack thereof, because including them would just have been a waste of precious time and money) on TV. They were what they were due to being made to the requirements of the medium they were intended for, right down to the garish colors. As TMP costume designer Robert Fletcher said:

Another thing I changed was the basic color concept. The original Star Trek was brightly colored. But a lot of that came about because color TV had been recently invented and all the networks wanted as much color as they could get for their money, right away. I used to get directives from NBC to use more color. ‘We spent a hundred million dollars to invent this system and we don’t want any grays or browns.’ So I felt, and Robert Wise felt, that the brilliant color was not very realistic, that it seemed distracting. He wanted to concentrate on people's faces or the emotion involved, and bright turquoise and red things vibrating on a widescreen were not what he wanted to do.

(Of course, at the same time, they also had to take into account that many would still have been watching on black-and-white TV sets. Everything was a compromise.)

Lots of people said that even before the suits admitted it. :D New technology at the time, they had fun with it. It looks vibrant and lush but was of its time. Then again, so did Buck Rogers - but in more refined ways and of its time. Realism would invariably take over. It did for most genres, certainly by 1970. Trek made it iconic. Right down to the uniforms, of the bold red/yellow/blue scheme. No orange/green/purple. Except Kirk with his muted green shirt, which probably looked very different on a B&W TV set. Then came TMP with the imagination-free tight pajamas with pastel blues and poo browns. The bold TOS outfits would also stand out in a real military. Even muted burgundy red, while still red, has a more natural feel. But Starfleet never did ground armies, thankfully. Apart from TOS landing parties where red stands out rather boldly to make easy targets to pick at...
 
Roddenberry's vision must have been hampered by something if he demanded the Phase II sets (which feel authentic to the 60s show despite being made a decade later!) be used for a big screen epic...

The major Phase II Enterprise sets were used for ST:TMP, with changes to instrumentation and finishing details - the bridge, engineering...
 
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