Things that made you go... Why? or How?

[Discofan]

I'll start by giving a few examples of what I mean... You can either try to give an answer or add new items to that list... Your choice.

1) How were the Ba'ku able to expulse their unruly offspring from the planet after having renounced technology and only using medieval tools for about two centuries and while we're at it. How were these offspring able to acquire technology with Luddite parents who wouldn't teach them anything about it?

2) If Guinan had such a hard time forgetting the Nexus and described it as being "wrapped in joy", how come both Picard and Kirk got sick of it in a matter of minutes? It could have occurred to Picard that since time was irrelevant then he could have stayed in the nexus for a couple of centuries and things outside would still be the same as.the moment he came in but it looked like he couldn't leave fast enough. How come that Picard's most urgent wish was to be surrounded with children since he disliked them so much that he told Riker that one of his most important tasks was to keep them away from him?

3) How come the Klingon BoP is able to site to site transport four hundred tons of water and two whales but not people?

Have fun!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How were the Ba'ku able to expulse their unruly offspring from the planet after having renounced technology and only using medieval tools for about two centuries and while we're at it. How were these offspring able to acquire technology with Luddite parents who wouldn't teach them anything about it?

The Ba'ku did still have access to technology - they just didn't use it in their day-to-day lives. You'll notice that they did try to repair Data, but were unable to do so. So they weren't wholly ignorant of technology. They knew it was there, they just didn't use it in their daily existence. Given this, I'm sure they had a means of expelling the Son'a from their planet - they can use technology in an emergency, and that would certainly qualify.

If Guinan had such a hard time forgetting the Nexus and described it as being "wrapped in joy", how come both Picard and Kirk got sick of it in a matter of minutes?

Guinan didn't have the extensive military training that Picard and Kirk did. So she was more easily swayed by the temptations of the Nexus.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I'll start by giving a few examples of what I mean... You can either try to give an answer or add new items to that list... Your choice.

1) How were the Ba'ku able to expulse their unruly offspring from the planet after having renounced technology and only using medieval tools for about two centuries and while we're at it. How were these offspring able to acquire technology with Luddite parents who wouldn't teach them anything about it?

2) If Guinan had such a hard time forgetting the Nexus and described it as being "wrapped in joy", how come both Picard and Kirk got sick of it in a matter of minutes? It could have occurred to Picard that since time was irrelevant then he could have stayed in the nexus for a couple of centuries and things outside would still be the same as.the moment he came in but it looked like he couldn't leave fast enough. How come that Picard's most urgent wish was to be surrounded with children since he disliked them so much that he told Riker that one of his most important tasks was to keep them away from him?

3) How come the Klingon BoP is able to site to site transport four hundred tons of water and two whales but not people?

Have fun!

The Ba'ku were simply ill-conceived from the get-go and were the fundamental flaw in what might have otherwise made for an okay film.

Same goes for the Nexus. (Thought to be fair, Mooraga was working under difficult plot demands/restrictions and time constraints.)

Three isn't an issued as was described/depicted in the film.

 

[Discofan]

The Ba'ku did still have access to technology - they just didn't use it in their day-to-day lives. You'll notice that they did try to repair Data, but were unable to do so. So they weren't wholly ignorant of technology. They knew it was there, they just didn't use it in their daily existence. Given this, I'm sure they had a means of expelling the Son'a from their planet - they can use technology in an emergency, and that would certainly qualify.
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I disagree. Their children had never seen a machine in their lives plus even if they kept something (in a cave?) I doubt that something was important enough to make starships, it's more likely that all they knew was what they still remember from the time long gone when they came to the planet. Plus as a group of six hundred, they occupy at most about one-millionth of the surface of the planet, how were they able to ensure that their offspring wouldn't be anywhere else on it? Plus as I said that wouldn't solve how their children were able to acquire their technology given that their parents didn't teach it to them? Do you think a bunch of people from the fifteenth century could have invented our technology on their own, let alone technology three hundred years in our future? Remember that the Ba'Ku of the first generation knew about technology but that their children were completely ignorant of it.

Guinan didn't have the extensive military training that Picard and Kirk did. So she was more easily swayed by the temptations of the Nexus.

First, neither Kirk nor Picard belong to the military. I've been in the military for a time, it doesn't look one bit like Starfleet Academy. It looks like Starfleet about as much as Starfleet looks like a vacation on Risa.

Regardless, that doesn't explain how Guinan thought it was infinite bliss and how both Picard and Kirk both thought almost immediately that there was something wrong with it.

Picard: "This isn't right!"

Kirk: "Nothing here matters"

It took them minutes to come to that conclusion!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I disagree. Their children had never seen a machine in their lives

The children, maybe. But the adults obviously have. Like I said, one of the Ba'ku adults specifically mentions that they had tried to repair Data. So they obviously had technology hidden away for emergencies.

First, neither Kirk nor Picard belong to the military

They are Starfleet officers, and Starfleet is the Federation's military.

 

[Jetboogieman]

1. Why do the Kazon just sit around all day outside the Ocampan city in the desert like idiots if they are a space faring people that could simply go in search of greener pastures?

2. Why in the world would Shinzon want to destroy all life on Earth?

3. Why would you even make it an option to disable safety protocols on a Holodeck?

4. Why does Red Squadron turn its leaders into relentlessly disobedient and lying douchebags that seem to consistently get people under their command killed?

All that comes to mind right now.

 

[Discofan]

The children, maybe. But the adults obviously have. Like I said, one of the Ba'ku adults specifically mentions that they had tried to repair Data. So they obviously had technology hidden away for emergencies.

I doubt these emergencies include making starships for the sole purpose of telling their children to hit the asteroids.

Think of these people using primitive forges and animals to transport their merchandises (by the way it's weird
that such "advanced" people would revert back to enslaving animals...)

All of a sudden they decide to create a whole industry to make starships in order to expulse their children who wouldn't accept a life without technology... Doesn't make much sense, does it?

They are Starfleet officers, and Starfleet is the Federation's military.

That doesn't explain why they wouldn't feel anything of what Guinan said they would. I mean to Guinan the nexus was ideal life, to them it was a glorified holodeck!!!

 

[trekshark]

Guinan didn't have the extensive military training that Picard and Kirk did. So she was more easily swayed by the temptations of the Nexus.

She was also fleeing the Borg after (recently?) seeing her home destroyed

 

[Nightdiamond]

I'll start by giving a few examples of what I mean... You can either try to give an answer or add new items to that list... Your choice.

1) How were the Ba'ku able to expulse their unruly offspring from the planet after having renounced technology and only using medieval tools for about two centuries and while we're at it. How were these offspring able to acquire technology with Luddite parents who wouldn't teach them anything about it?

Here's an even better question; How could the Federation claim the space the Baku planet was in when the Baku settled there 100 years before the Federation was even founded?

 

[Timo]

I'll start by giving a few examples of what I mean... You can either try to give an answer or add new items to that list... Your choice.

I'll be the dull sort...

1) How were the Ba'ku able to expulse their unruly offspring from the planet after having renounced technology and only using medieval tools for about two centuries and while we're at it.

They probably still kept their starships parked in a cave somewhere. And the rift in the first place no doubt was along the lines of whether to use those starships or not...

The Ba'ku are portrayed as somewhat pacifist in their chosen mode of existence. But deep down, they are likely to be afraid instead. They are huddling inside the Briar Patch, having fled from a star empire of some sort. They didn't exactly flee oppression and violence; like so many colonizing parties in Star Trek, they denounced the technology-dependent way of life back home. But they still hid. Letting the youngsters take the starships for a ride around the neighborhood might get everybody killed, or at least dragged back home.

Except it didn't, because when the Son'a left, the Briar Patch was already besieged by another star empire, the UFP. Whether the Son'a returned to their ancestral home, or just set up shop somewhere else, is left unclear in the movie, but e.g. Memory Alpha quotes the latter model, based largely on cut scenes and illegible computer readouts.

How were these offspring able to acquire technology with Luddite parents who wouldn't teach them anything about it?

The folks of which the Ba'ku and Son'a were part probably were technologically highly advanced overall. The Son'a knew how to collect the fountain-of-youth particles when the best minds of the Federation could not. The Ba'ku had Data figured out in no time flat when the best minds of the Federation had to wait until "Datalore" to even discover that Data was a positronic machine created by Noonien Soong.

Also interestingly, the Son'a were manufacturing Ketracel White for the Dominion back in the war; although it was never stated the UFP could not do the same, we might jump to conclusions here and speculate the Ba'ku originally came all the way from Gamma Quadrant, with all the related requirements on capabilities.

Simply giving up on the luddite credo might allow these people to become tech wizards (again) overnight. It's not as if the Son'a would have been specified as bred in the Briar Patch - they would be "youngsters" rather than "children", already educated in the tech ways when their parents chose to flee.

2) If Guinan had such a hard time forgetting the Nexus and described it as being "wrapped in joy", how come both Picard and Kirk got sick of it in a matter of minutes?

I'd speculate the Nexus is simply a shuttle flight arranged by a fairly advanced culture: it does what the passengers want it to do, including providing superb inflight entertainment. Its regular route takes it close to planets so that the passengers can opt to leave or board. And it certainly won't stop passengers from leaving if they so wish. But Guinan's ghost would have had no desire to leave, whereas Kirk and Picard were on a mission.

How come that Picard's most urgent wish was to be surrounded with children since he disliked them so much that he told Riker that one of his most important tasks was to keep them away from him?

What's that annoying quote? "The lady doth protest too much". Picard always wanted to have kids, which is why it was so painful for him to be surrounded by the kids of others when he had none...

3) How come the Klingon BoP is able to site to site transport four hundred tons of water and two whales but not people?

The heroes repaired it. That was quite a major plot point in the movie...

1. Why do the Kazon just sit around all day outside the Ocampan city in the desert like idiots if they are a space faring people that could simply go in search of greener pastures?

Because they want to pillage the Ocampan city. And if they give up, some other Kazon sect will take their "pole position" and get to the riches first.

Which is also why these Kazon are short on water. There's plenty around, but this bunch cannot leave because leaving would mean losing.

The Kazon can no doubt tell that this is the crucial hour - the Caretaker starting to die has all sorts of observable consequences that Neelix points out and the Kazon no doubt could spot as well. This is definitely not the time to take a break!

2. Why in the world would Shinzon want to destroy all life on Earth?

No bloody idea.

But he was pretty pissed off at having been manufactured for a purpose. If him existing was a problem, confounded by him soon ceasing to exist, then inflicting nonexistence on others would seem prudent. He had already handled some of the Romulans, and might well return to finish that side of the business. Doing the humans was simply within his means.

3. Why would you even make it an option to disable safety protocols on a Holodeck?

For the thrills. Many hobbies are based on the thrill of danger to life and limb, and outlawing suicide is no longer fashionable today. And judging by "Ethics" and the like, it supposedly isn't in the 24th century, either.

It is noteworthy, though, that the safeties in the adventures are turned off by people with top authority: LaForge and Torres, chiefly. Or Chiefly.

4. Why does Red Squadron turn its leaders into relentlessly disobedient and lying douchebags that seem to consistently get people under their command killed?

Oh, Red Squad only ever appears once, in DS9. The first bunch to do that was called the Nova Squad, in TNG.

I guess it's a way of standing out. Leaders lead, but not all leaders manage to inflict mayhem during their study years yet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Here's an even better question; How could the Federation claim the space the Baku planet was in when the Baku settled there 100 years before the Federation was even founded?

Hmm. If we decide to think that the Briar Patch in the movie is the same place that Arik Soong called the Briar Patch in the ENT Augments episodes, then this place was within Earth's sphere of influence in the 22nd century already - the Augments hiding in there expected to be chased by Earth ships, even though, say, Klingon ships were out of the question.

How does one claim a planet anyway? Just settling there shouldn't count for much. If Vulcans landed on the Moon in 1973 and established a settlement, would they own the place? What if they landed in 1953? Or 2063, when Earth might be in a position to do something about it, but human lunar settlements wouldn't exist (yet/any longer?)?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Because the Federation was an expansionist power in the Alpha quadrant perhaps?
JB

 

[Butters]

The Baku weren’t completely technophobic. That pristine lake that the holodeck ship was hidden in was artificial, and far more than necessary for the needs of their tiny villiage. There was a lot more going on there than what we saw.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, the very drainage of that lake betrayed the presence of alien supertech: no human engineer could devise a system that could drop the lake surface by that much (the height of the hidden ship) in that short a time, at least not without disturbing the waters at all.

Although of course the surface didn't really drop one inch, as we clearly see from the shoreline shots before and after. Instead, the ship appeared to ascend, perhaps having been programmed to do so the moment the water levels dropped enough to reveal the very top deck. We might pretend such a drop did indeed take place, despite the visual evidence. And it would still be pretty good going for the drainage system.

But yeah, the Ba'ku were hiding their candle under a bushel. There's no way a single village could sustain an iron age culture unless it sat atop an iron mine and next to a stream and half a dozen sorts of fertile soil and hunting grounds simultaneously (all of which the Ba'ku could have arranged for when they arrived) and mined using invisible slaves (which the Ba'ku no doubt had, only of the machine sort).

And there's no way a single village on the whole planet could ever be considered "native" - so Dougherty must have known the gig would be up the moment Picard arrived to snoop around. Which makes one wonder why he allowed Data to join the party in the first place: everybody involved would have to be sworn to silence about the "true" purpose of the mission (to observe non-natives and their non-primitive ways) when the official cover story as believed by Picard was different (to observe primitive natives) and the real truth was the privilege of the inner circles only (to prepare the non-primitive non-natives for transplanting).

Did Data, too, sign non-disclosure documents, only his subroutines would eventually have none of it? Even then, if Dougherty had the oomph to arrange for a loyal team of live Starfleet personnel, why accept the help of an outsider like Data? Did he mistake him for an easily misled or reprogrammed simpleton, a pawn that would give more credence to the cover story at little cost?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

What's that annoying quote? "The lady doth protest too much". Picard always wanted to have kids, which is why it was so painful for him to be surrounded by the kids of others when he had none...

I think maybe he's afraid he'll mess it up, fail them, not be good at it. He thinks the life he chose (Starfleet captain) will someday take him away from them, or them from him. So his crew are sort of surrogate children. There are people who think nothing of doing valiant exploits, but the idea of being responsible for the care and bringing up of a child scares them to death. They don't want to fail.

So the fake family he has is a family he hasn't failed. Which is why he recognizes the unreality of it all. As much as he might wish for a perfect life, he knows that it's not real. He rejects living in a fantasy world, even though he'll visit from time to time (Dixon Hill).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I doubt these emergencies include making starships for the sole purpose of telling their children to hit the asteroids.

Most likely the starships the Son'a used to leave the planet, were left over from when their ancestors first arrived there. (They had to get there somehow...) And once in space, the Son'a would have plenty of time to build a fleet of their own.

Here's an even better question; How could the Federation claim the space the Baku planet was in when the Baku settled there 100 years before the Federation was even founded?

Because the Ba'ku weren't native to the planet. They don't have any legal claim on it.

 

[UssGlenn]

2) If Guinan had such a hard time forgetting the Nexus and described it as being "wrapped in joy", how come both Picard and Kirk got sick of it in a matter of minutes?

She was also fleeing the Borg after (recently?) seeing her home destroyed

Exactly, Both she and Soran were in a much more emotionally vulnerable place, than Kirk and Picard.

Here's an even better question; How could the Federation claim the space the Baku planet was in when the Baku settled there 100 years before the Federation was even founded?

Because the Ba'ku weren't native to the planet. They don't have any legal claim on it.

That doesn't make any sense, the Federation isn't native to it either, it was (as far as we know) uninhabited. Whoever settles it first legally owns it. The Baku are the legal owners of the planet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Actually, now that I think about it, the question of whether that planet is legally Federation territory wasn't actually resolved in the film, was it?

I remember the village elders telling Picard and crew to leave, and at first they were going to comply with that request (which would seem to support your position that the Ba'ku are indeed claiming the planet as their own). It was only when Picard became suspicious that they decided to remain.

In any case, I'm sure some compromise was worked out in the end. There wasn't a standoff or anything like that. And it's not like the Federation would put forth a huge amount of effort into claiming a planet that was in a strategically insignificant (but very dangerous) sector of space...

 

[MAGolding]

Here's an even better question; How could the Federation claim the space the Baku planet was in when the Baku settled there 100 years before the Federation was even founded?

And:

Hmm. If we decide to think that the Briar Patch in the movie is the same place that Arik Soong called the Briar Patch in the ENT Augments episodes, then this place was within Earth's sphere of influence in the 22nd century already - the Augments hiding in there expected to be chased by Earth ships, even though, say, Klingon ships were out of the question.

How does one claim a planet anyway? Just settling there shouldn't count for much. If Vulcans landed on the Moon in 1973 and established a settlement, would they own the place? What if they landed in 1953? Or 2063, when Earth might be in a position to do something about it, but human lunar settlements wouldn't exist (yet/any longer?)?

Timo Saloniemi

I think that a more plausible answer is that the Federation claims space around the Briar Patch. So the Briar Patch is like a bubble of unclaimed space within Federation Space. The Federation doesn't permit space ships from other realms to cross Federation Space to explore the Briar Patch and claim planets in it, and apparently the Briar Patch is a dangerous place to navigate, so neighboring powers wouldn't want to claim planets in it anyway.

Presumably the Federation decreed that the Baku Planet and its entire solar system was more or less the property of the Baku as soon as they were discovered and decreed that it would prevent anyone from settling in that solar system until the Baku eventually discovered warp drive and could be contacted.

Once it was discovered that the Baku were non natives and actually colonists from outer space, the status of their planet became undetermined. And I don't know how that was resolved.

 

[lurok]

Don't get me started.