Was the directive broken?

[Guy Gardener]

As far as genesis is concerned, that would probably be a separate issue since genesis was about creating life where there was no life, so at that point, they were still trying to prove the concept of something from nothing.

The Federation probably had stuff that could manipulate lifey microbes into more complex organisms, which in itself would be unpredictable since if you can't control the batter, god only knows what sort of pancakes you'll wind up with.

Yes, the Prime Directive would stop them moving forward eventually, but they were not there yet.

 

[Sophie74656]

Just re-watched the scene and yes, there were. You don't see them, but you can here all forms of bird sounds, and what sounds like crickets and various other life forms.

So no advanced life. The babies will live their lifespan and die and that will be the end of it.

 

[Sophie74656]

over the course of millions of years? good question.

There was no intelligent life on the planet at the time.

 

[I_like_andorians]

So no advanced life. The babies will live their lifespan and die and that will be the end of it.

Sentient. The key word is sentient...
The prime directive include sentient life.

 

[Sophie74656]

Sentient. The key word is sentient...
The prime directive include sentient life.

The babies are not going to have an impact on birds and squirels...they may possibly eat some.

 

[Damian]

Let's not forget the Federation has colonized worlds with primitive life on it. I don't think Paris and Janeway leaving their offspring on an otherwise uninhabited planet would be an issue.

 

[at Quark's]

In fact, we don't know exactly what this prime directive is. Supposedly it has to do something with not interfering with pre-warp (or pre 'conscious of existence of aliens') cultures, but throughout Trek there are nevertheless several situations that are cited as (potential) violations of this directive where this description wouldn't seem to apply, and conversely there are several situations where such a culture was contacted where it apparently didn't constitute such a breach.

That vagueness makes it a bit hard to determine if the PD was broken here or not , but my feeling would be that it was not (as it involved at best the introduction/removal of a few extra reptiles in an otherwise non-sapient ecosystem).

 

[marsh8472]

Maybe a strict literal interpretation of the prime directive was broken but wasn't blatant enough to warrant charges or a conviction if they brought charges. The crew could point at other more serious violations in history that were dismissed and have their case dismissed based on the case law of previous prime directive violators.

 

[Tenacity]

They considered killing a lifeform a violation of the prime directive.

You need to watch Sacrifice of Angels sometime.
And also Devil in the Dark.
And the one (someone help here) where Worf kills a local animal for dinner, the one where Dax get badly hurt and Worf decides to not assist a defector.

There was no intelligent life on the planet at the time.

Untrue, there were the babies.

 

[marsh8472]

You need to watch Sacrifice of Angels sometime.
And also Devil in the Dark.
And the one (someone help here) where Worf kills a local animal for dinner, the one where Dax get badly hurt and Worf decides to not assist a defector.

Yeah for Sacrifice of Angels and other war episodes DS9 "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" justifies that here:

ROSS: Inter arma enim silent leges.
BASHIR: In time of war, the law falls silent. Cicero. So is that what we have become? A twenty fourth century Rome driven by nothing more than the certainty that Caesar can do no wrong!

The killing of offspring in Devil in the Dark was not intentional and then they were trying to defend themselves when attempting to kill the mother horta like we've seen similar situations like in TNG "Galaxy's Child"

DS9 "Change of Heart" and DS9 "The Sword of Kahless" were killing a single organism presumably part of a larger species which is not likely to have much impact to the ecosystem compared to introducing a new lifeform that probably won't have any natural predators then could reproduce like crazy like in here:

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[Valenti]

Paris and Janeway were supposed to be ancient aliens like the Preservers.

 

[Tenacity]

They considered killing a lifeform a violation of the prime directive.

they were trying to defend themselves when attempting to kill the mother

Point being they obviously don't considered killing a life form a violation of the prime directive, and likely not a breaking of any lesser laws either.

Carol Marcus wanted a clean slate for her experiment. It wasn't a matter of not wanting the experiment killing any wild life or even microbes, she didn't want any random outside factors playing with the results.

If the genesis device had worked and was used in the future, life on the intended target planet wouldn't have been a issue, other than no current intelligent life.

 

[marsh8472]

Carol Marcus wanted a clean slate for her experiment. It wasn't a matter of not wanting the experiment killing any wild life or even microbes, she didn't want any random outside factors playing with the results.

If the genesis device had worked and was used in the future, life on the intended target planet wouldn't have been a issue, other than no current intelligent life.

They never said that in the movie though. They said they required a lifeless planet but did not say why. But they showed concern for life here

McCOY: But, dear Lord, do you think we're intelligent enough to... Suppose, what if this thing were used where life already exists?
SPOCK: It would destroy such life in favour of its new matrix.
McCOY: It's new matrix? ...Do you have you any idea what you're saying?
SPOCK: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications,

And here

DAVID: Every time we have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. ...We are dealing with something that could be perverted into a dreadful weapon. Remember that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang around with? That's exactly the kind of man..

From enterprise episode "Silent Enemy" archer showed concern for microbes before they even had a prime directive

[Bridge]

(There is a crater-pocked asteroid on viewscreen.)
ARCHER: You're sure there's nothing down there?
T'POL: Yes, Captain.
ARCHER: Not even a microbe? I don't want to blow up something that could evolve into a sentient species in a couple of billion years.
T'POL: There's nothing there.
ARCHER: Archer to Lieutenant Reed. Have you got a lock?
REED [OC]: Yes, Captain.
ARCHER: Let's start small. Shave a couple of metres off the top of that peak.

 

[Abi Smith]

Isn't the Prime Directive to not interfere with the development of any pre-warp civilisation/world/system, once they have warp capability and are able to reach others the Federation, previously the Vulcans, step in to prevent them intering themselves.

Sounds a bit Section 31 on reflection, stopping any emergent superpower by being their first contact with hopes of signing them up to the Federation.

 

[Tenacity]

McCOY: what if this thing were used where life already exists?

It's pretty clear in the various series and movies that when Starfleet personnel use the term "lifeforms" they are specifically referring to intelligent life, and not life in general. So I think when McCoy spoke of "life" he was referring to sapient people, and not simply anything alive.

ARCHER: Not even a microbe?

Archer doesn't wash his hands? gross.

 

[Farscape One]

I think the Prime Directive is about not only not interfering with pre-warp civilizations, but interfering in the internal affairs of ANY civilization.

A clear example of this would be Picard's blockade in "Redemption II". He couldn't directly help either side in a clearly internal Klingon matter, the civil war, so he did the blockade to stop any Romulan interference.

Sisko stayed out of the Kai elections because it was purely an internal Bajoran matter.

Janeway is a more difficult one to find an example... "THIRTY DAYS" comes to mind, but that seems more like stopping one of her crew from performing what might be seen as a terrorist action. "PRIME FACTORS" seems more like her not doing an illegal transaction, which can be still seen as not violating the Prime Directive.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think the PD only applies to planets with intelligent life, remember they regularly terraform and colonize uninhabited planets.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We already covered that.

They only teraform planets complete devoid of any life.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/was-the-directive-broken.295759/#post-12602309

 

[JirinPanthosa]

We already covered that.

They only teraform planets complete devoid of any life.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/was-the-directive-broken.295759/#post-12602309

No such limitation is placed on establishing colonies.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If monkeys or fish start talking... The Federation would have to leave, and take all their technology with them. So it's not like they would settle somewhere where the animals were a couple dozens years away developing sapience.

In a novel I read, they were talking about how the Enterprise D has to be cut up and taken away before the prewarp people living one planet over noticed the plethora of alien tech resting there in a crater like a cheap yard sale.