Something that bugs me about TUC

[Discofan]

Spock jumped to the conclusion that because the memory bank has been tampered with then the assassins automatically beamed from and back to the Enterprise. Of course, since "reality" proved him right then no one questioned his logic. However, the assassins were never seen during the killing and could very well have been Klingons in federation outfits (as Worf the defender sort of suggested) beamed from and back to the Klingon ship. Valeris could have altered the computer memory. Just imagine how much harder it would have been to prove anything if they had proceeded this way.
At any rate, it shows that Spock's reasoning is very weak.

 

[Tenacity]

Spock's logic was weak, but this wouldn't be the first time.

As was pointed out, the assassins could have come from the cloaked ship (providing it could have beamed while cloaked). Or the assassins could have beamed back to the Enterprise, unfastened the boots and left them on the transporter pad, and then beamed them into space.

The person who changed the Enterprise's records would not of had to of been one of the assassins. Could have been someone else in the ship's company, The records could have been set to change prior to the Enterprise leaving space dock.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Spock jumped to the conclusion that because the memory bank has been tampered with then the assassins automatically beamed from and back to the Enterprise. Of course, since "reality" proved him right then no one questioned his logic. However, the assassins were never seen during the killing and could very well have been Klingons in federation outfits (as Worf the defender sort of suggested) beamed from and back to the Klingon ship. Valeris could have altered the computer memory. Just imagine how much harder it would have been to prove anything if they had proceeded this way.
At any rate, it shows that Spock's reasoning is very weak.

This is all in the weakness of the writing, the predictable murder mystery was all they (Meyer & Flynn) had for that film. Spock's assumptions sure looked like inside information; it was a narrow leap he made.

 

[Discofan]

... (providing it could have beamed while cloaked)....

You're right. It could be that it is impossible to beam from a cloaked ship but in that case someone should have at least mentioned it if only to reject it on those grounds. Plus the Klingon ship was a prototype so they couldn't be sure what it could do while cloaked, every one was flabbergasted that it could even fire while cloaked.

 

[Tenacity]

^ I wonder what would have happen if a earlier model cloaked ship were to have fired a torpedoes while cloaked? And why did the Klingons dropped the idea, while imperfect it did work.

Spock's assumptions sure looked like inside information

He might have suspected Valaris (sp?) almost immediately, and wanted to both give her enough rope to hang herself and an opportunity to prove him wrong

 

[Discofan]

^ I wonder what would have happen if a earlier model cloaked ship were to have fired a torpedoes while cloaked? And why did the Klingons dropped the idea, while imperfect it did work.
He might have suspected Valaris (sp?) almost immediately, and wanted to both give her enough rope to hang herself and an opportunity to prove him wrong

I don't think so. If he suspected Valeris of treason then his behavior makes no sense whatsoever. I think Spock was sincere when he told Valeris that he thought of her as his successor.

On the other hand what I find funny is Cartwright's look on his face when Kirk said that he agreed with him. He couldn't have looked more like someone with an ulterior motive if he tried. Watch that part of the movie and tell me if he doesn't have guilt written all over his face in capital letters!

One thing that's rather strained is the fact that Valeris recorded Kirk:

How did she know that there would be anything to record, let alone something that could be used against him? The part about him not trusting Klingons and not forgiving them for the death of his son lasted about five seconds, plus she couldn't stay very long around his quarters without arousing suspicion. How come she even had a recording device on her? Did she think: "I have something to tell Kirk, so I'll take a recording device with me just in case he'll say something against the Klingons?" Seriously?

 

[Discofan]

I think the use of Kirk’s log entry may have been what alerted Spock to the presence of a traitor aboard the ship. That sort of information is encrypted and wouldn’t be something the Klingons would have had access to.

Still, Kruge was pretty confident that he could retrieve all information about Genesis from the Enterprise's computer even though it should have been even more heavily encrypted than someone's personal log entries.

 

[FormerLurker]

would not of had to of been

would not have had to have been

AAARRGGHH! (Please note this in not a personal attack. This particular grammar error just bugs the hell out of me. Many here do it, and I'm trying to build a tolerance, but it's difficult because that just makes all of them do it more)

Valeris probably recorded Kirk every chance she got, on the off chance he would say something she could use. Starfleet Command has long known about Kirk's dislike for the Klingons over David's death. Cartwright wanting to use that is no surprise.

 

[Greg Cox]

I love TUC, but the idea that somehow Kirk got arrested by the Klingons, put on trial, and shipped off to the prison planet without the Klingons ever detecting the tracking device on his clothing--or Kirk ever changing clothes--is not something you want to think about too hard.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder what would have happen if a earlier model cloaked ship were to have fired a torpedoes while cloaked? And why did the Klingons dropped the idea, while imperfect it did work.

The novel sheds some light on this, if I recall. I believe part of it was a concession in the name of peace.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Still, Kruge was pretty confident that he could retrieve all information about Genesis from the Enterprise's computer even though it should have been even more heavily encrypted than someone's personal log entries.

Klingon bravado. Kruge let a boarding party walk right into their deaths and foolishly allowed the surviving Enterprise crew members to beam aboard his BOP. Even if he had survived his fight with Kirk, he likely would have been killed by Saavik as soon as he came onto the bridge. He doesn’t strike me as someone careful enough or clever enough to be able to extract top-secret information from a starship computer.

 

[Discofan]

I love TUC, but the idea that somehow Kirk got arrested by the Klingons, put on trial, and shipped off to the prison planet without the Klingons ever detecting the tracking device on his clothing--or Kirk ever changing clothes--is not something you want to think about too hard.

It would have made more sense if he had injected something in his body.

 

[Timo]

I don't think so. If he suspected Valeris of treason then his behavior makes no sense whatsoever.

Why not? Spock is giving out nuggets of (dis)information in select company. Sometimes only Scotty and Valeris are present, sometimes only Chekov and Uhura, and so forth. Tracking the nuggets would tell Spock volumes.

One thing that's rather strained is the fact that Valeris recorded Kirk

"Recorded Kirk"? Why would we think this?

The court quotes Kirk's log as the source for the recording. If the court could not have access to Kirk's logs, then this would have been brought up immediately in Kirk's defense.

Valeris merely tipped the Klingons off as to what to look for in Kirk's logs. This does not call for prolonged or determined eavesdropping: she merely mentioned something she overheard, and would probably have overheard any number of racist slurs had she happened to be at the door at some other date. Or so she would assume.

It is furthermore unlikely she intended the Klingons to make any use of this in the court. Odds are she just had some free-flowing conversation with her Klingon spymaster and mentioned Kirk's compromising feelings, and the Klingons jumped at the chance, not understanding the risks, or considering them worth their attention.

I love TUC, but the idea that somehow Kirk got arrested by the Klingons, put on trial, and shipped off to the prison planet without the Klingons ever detecting the tracking device on his clothing--or Kirk ever changing clothes--is not something you want to think about too hard.

Well, what Spock placed on his shoulder was a patch of "viridium" - obviously the name of a substance, rather than of a device. And once placed, the patch changes shape from shot to shot, suggesting it indeed is a stain of some substance. So @Discofan has it down pat: the means of tracking was inserted into Kirk's shoulder, rather than into his uniform. And it was just an unexpected bonus that the Klingons let Kirk keep his jacket and thereby maximize the dosage carried on and in his person...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

And why wouldn't they let him keep his uniform? They had no reason to humiliate him by removing it. It better serves their cause to let him wear it, and let the other prisoners see that a Federation officer is among them, captive of the Klingons and their superiority. And besides, the Klingons seldom bathe themselves. Wearing a stinking uniform for months is de rigueur for them.

 

[Unicron]

The person who changed the Enterprise's records would not of had to of been one of the assassins. Could have been someone else in the ship's company, The records could have been set to change prior to the Enterprise leaving space dock.

I suppose the argument could be made that not every officer would have the skill to modify specific aspects of the computer. Valeris was trained as a helm officer. When Spock determined that the Enterprise log had been altered in "Court Martial" to portray Kirk taking actions that seemingly led to Finney's death, it's stated in dialogue that only a few officers (Kirk, Spock himself, and Finney as the records officer) would have been able to do so. The assassins apparently failed to modify the inventory logs, which still displayed a full load of torpedoes which Scotty confirmed with a visual count. They only modified the firing logs to support the idea of the torpedoes coming from Enterprise.

(or so I recall, though my brain is tired atm )

Geordi said in "Mind's Eye" that only a handful of D crew members could reconfigure the ship's memory as he (unwittingly) does in the episode.

 

[Damian]

I love TUC, but the idea that somehow Kirk got arrested by the Klingons, put on trial, and shipped off to the prison planet without the Klingons ever detecting the tracking device on his clothing--or Kirk ever changing clothes--is not something you want to think about too hard.

Ha-ha, yeah, I often thought of that myself. I mean, it wasn't exactly well hidden. It was plain for all the world to see. I suppose if it blended better with his uniform tunic maybe I could buy it. Maybe it was some secret device undetectable by the Klingons. But it was visually obvious. And I guess Klingons don't give out prison garb, you wear what you came in with.

I enjoyed TUC, it was a fun movie in many ways. But there are a number of elements that could cause the plot to fall like a house of cards if you think about it too much. There's a few things you have to take for granted that they are giving you.

^ I wonder what would have happen if a earlier model cloaked ship were to have fired a torpedoes while cloaked? And why did the Klingons dropped the idea, while imperfect it did work.

I often wondered that myself. Firing while cloaked didn't reappear again until the Scimitar in Nemesis, almost 100 years later. The only thing I can figure is there was something about it that made it not feasible, but that was never established.

The court quotes Kirk's log as the source for the recording. If the court could not have access to Kirk's logs, then this would have been brought up immediately in Kirk's defense.

Valeris merely tipped the Klingons off as to what to look for in Kirk's logs. This does not call for prolonged or determined eavesdropping: she merely mentioned something she overheard, and would probably have overheard any number of racist slurs had she happened to be at the door at some other date. Or so she would assume.

That was my take as well. I always thought it was lucky happenstance that she happened to be nearby when he made the recording and I figured she provided someone, an informant or spy, with a copy. But I didn't think she recorded it herself.

 

[Damian]

The novel sheds some light on this, if I recall. I believe part of it was a concession in the name of peace.

You may be right, much like the Federation giving up on cloaking technology after the Tomed incident.

It's been years since I read it though. I made a huge mistake with the novel though. It came out a few days before the movie did and I made the mistake of reading the book before I saw the movie. Needless to say I ruined the ending for myself since I already knew who dunnit---and it wasn't the butler .

 

[jaime]

Thing is....the BoP used a transporter when cloaked all the time in IV.

Which is awkward for the theories put forward here, but also because it makes it a ridiculous weapon already....can’t fire when cloaked? Beam a torpedo wherever you like. Kidnap whoever you like, as long as shields are down...
Go straight to earth and beam troops, bombs, food vending machines, anything down, all you like.

 

[starburst]

Thing is....the BoP used a transporter when cloaked all the time in IV.

Its an inconsistency to whether the signal from the Transporter or Weapons fire is stopped by the cloak or whether it is solely a power issue and you can't use one while the other is on. I always took it as a power issue which is why the BoP can use the transporter while landed (despite having a serious power issue anyway) but that ignores the fact that they can use the Warp Drive while cloaked with no issue.

 

[Smellmet]

Thing is....the BoP used a transporter when cloaked all the time in IV.

Which is awkward for the theories put forward here, but also because it makes it a ridiculous weapon already....can’t fire when cloaked? Beam a torpedo wherever you like. Kidnap whoever you like, as long as shields are down...
Go straight to earth and beam troops, bombs, food vending machines, anything down, all you like.

Damn I never thought about that. That unravels the whole thing doesn't it.