Post War Ship Building
- Thread starter Tim Walker
- Start date
Yeah, really, let's get back on-topic.
As I said a few days back, I believe Starfleet would repair every ship they can, and then build using a design that slaps together as fast as possible. After a few years of stable growth, they would begin to replace the short-life ships with more robust designs, probably based on pre-war ships with a massive tech refresh.
In the game Star Fleet Battles, all empires had the same problem as the Great General War continued. It cost too much and too took long to build standard pre-war ships, so they came up with the "War Cruiser" (a light cruiser) and "War Destroyer". As they began to run low on Heavy Cruisers, they found a way to convert the War Cruiser to a "New Heavy Cruiser" with all the combat ability of a standard Heavy Cruiser. However, all of these designs were better suited for warfare and most were mothballed after the war as they weren't very good at a peacetime exploration role.
I think perhaps Starfleet would have a degree of modularity that would help in wartime situations, as some hulls (particularly variants of the Oberth and Miranda design families) seem to have a variety of classes in fanon works and there are also fairly large design families using Excelsior and Constitution/Class I design elements. I would imagine it's cheaper to reuse a lot of basic components than always try to build new ones.
And what @Sgt_G depicts a couple of pages back is in fact a good match for a modular/familial design put forth in calendars and novels of late - the Merian class. See Memory Beta for details...
She might not be exactly postwar in design, but she's very modular. The MB text may not quite establish it, but examine the pics there (and by googling for "Merian class"): the designer built the ship so that its nacelles and sensor/weapons modules could go in all sorts of sockets, including up/down, dorsal or ventral T pylon, quadruple, what-have-you. Double deflectors, too: perhaps a must when you use one for fighting the Borg and still need to flee at warp through a nebula afterwards?
Timo Saloniemi
She might not be exactly postwar in design, but she's very modular. The MB text may not quite establish it, but examine the pics there (and by googling for "Merian class"): the designer built the ship so that its nacelles and sensor/weapons modules could go in all sorts of sockets, including up/down, dorsal or ventral T pylon, quadruple, what-have-you. Double deflectors, too: perhaps a must when you use one for fighting the Borg and still need to flee at warp through a nebula afterwards?
Timo Saloniemi
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Probably intended to do more than any small ship before, so that Starfleet needs less ships overall. As is the wont of every navy today.
Usually, this doesn't work at all. Swapping of modules is a chore; multipurpose ships doing job A are unavailable for jobs B, C and D; and the jack-of-all-trades is good at nothing much, but additionally requires more crew and maintenance than a mission-specific design.
Might be Starfleet has found a way to make it work. Then again, the Federation apparently won't even do standard containers - possibly for the obvious reason that containers and other modules in a core-rim realm tend to accumulate in the rim, empty and useless.
Timo Saloniemi
Usually, this doesn't work at all. Swapping of modules is a chore; multipurpose ships doing job A are unavailable for jobs B, C and D; and the jack-of-all-trades is good at nothing much, but additionally requires more crew and maintenance than a mission-specific design.
Might be Starfleet has found a way to make it work. Then again, the Federation apparently won't even do standard containers - possibly for the obvious reason that containers and other modules in a core-rim realm tend to accumulate in the rim, empty and useless.
Timo Saloniemi
If the smaller size described by Trekyards is correct, I would slap together a bunch of Centaurs. I imagine the Centaur design as a patrol vessel. During peace time a Centaur would have duties similar to a Coast Guard cutter. During war, it would serve as a decent defensive vessel. Eventually, as a gopher.
The "small" ships of the TNG+ era are all around the size of 23rd century Constitution-class starships, but have far less crew. Thus they have the space to be multipurpose vessels, should Starfleet need that. But mostly they would build ships that can do one thing well and than many other things if needed (Defiant-class ships were basically warships, but they could be used for other things, if needed).
Upgrade Nova-class starships seem to be fairly functional for in and near Federation use. And after USS Voyager returns home, Starfleet will have access to a whole host of new technologies cataloged or delivered by said starship to Earth. While some of the weapons, and defense systems discovered might be handy in the future, the main technology Voyager returns with is the Quantum Slipstream Drive. Those will be the purpose built, long distance exploration ships and ships designed to support said exploration efforts (because even if you can cross the galaxy in a few weeks, it doesn't mean you have to do so). So you will have a small fleet of Slipstream Drive ships as well as a rebuilt fleet to support the inner Federation worlds. Than you will have border patrol fleets to defend the more violent borders, as well as maintain a presence near Romulan space, the Bajoran wormhole, maintaining stability of Cardassian Space, and near Breen Space. And finally replace any exploration vessels lost in the war and send them back out to their missions before the decade of interruptions starting with the Borg invasion leading to Wolf 359 and ending at the end of the Dominion War. Replacement of lost Galaxy-class ships. Nebula-class ships, replacement of the aging Ambassador-class ships, and any other explorers lost in that decade, or ships that were suppose to be explorers but hadn't been send on missions in the unknown (like USS Enterprise having been stuck mostly in Federation space for the duration).
Upgrade Nova-class starships seem to be fairly functional for in and near Federation use. And after USS Voyager returns home, Starfleet will have access to a whole host of new technologies cataloged or delivered by said starship to Earth. While some of the weapons, and defense systems discovered might be handy in the future, the main technology Voyager returns with is the Quantum Slipstream Drive. Those will be the purpose built, long distance exploration ships and ships designed to support said exploration efforts (because even if you can cross the galaxy in a few weeks, it doesn't mean you have to do so). So you will have a small fleet of Slipstream Drive ships as well as a rebuilt fleet to support the inner Federation worlds. Than you will have border patrol fleets to defend the more violent borders, as well as maintain a presence near Romulan space, the Bajoran wormhole, maintaining stability of Cardassian Space, and near Breen Space. And finally replace any exploration vessels lost in the war and send them back out to their missions before the decade of interruptions starting with the Borg invasion leading to Wolf 359 and ending at the end of the Dominion War. Replacement of lost Galaxy-class ships. Nebula-class ships, replacement of the aging Ambassador-class ships, and any other explorers lost in that decade, or ships that were suppose to be explorers but hadn't been send on missions in the unknown (like USS Enterprise having been stuck mostly in Federation space for the duration).
Apologies for the novel, but this topic has become a bit of an obsession of mine. Due to a case of "prequel burnout" my mind has been clinging to the idea of the future of Starfleeet.
Since my first post, I've done a lot of contemplating and digestion on the subject, and I've come up with a pretty good picture of how I see Starfleeet rebuilding.
First and foremost, as has been said before, older ships would certainly be repaired and updated, mostly using parts pulled from newer, better equipped ships. They would largely serve as a stop-gap until the newer, more homogeneous fleet could be completed, before being retired to routine scientific/utility work. They would serve largely as the auxiliary fleet once the main postwar fleet came online. Many could even end up sold or loaned out to Federation members with the specific clause that they be returned to Starfleeet upon request.
The oldest, less capable among them would largely be mothballed or scrapped outright to free up resources for newer designs. The surviving Constellation and Oberth class ships and most if not all single ship classes would be scrapped.
A limited number of surviving Miranda's might be retained, largely operating with skeleton crews as rescue and recovery ships or armed freighters
Fully agree that something like this would become the workhorse of the fleet, replacing the Oberth and Constellation classes outright. This little honey has more space and muscle than the Oberth, both tactical and energy-wise, and it's modularity and ease of construction make it, for lack of a better term, somewhat expendable.
It's no major loss if a crew has to evacuate and scuttle in the event of an emergency.
Again I agree. Mostly.
Starfleet would most likely stick with proven designs with updates or modifications based of the lessons learned during the "decade of conflict."
Far as numbers and composition, I would see them moving to a unified main fleet, using a sort of tierd structure that focusses more on a ships place within the fleet as opposed to it's intended role, which is what it's seems like Starfleet was working towards when the Borg showed up. 8-10 classes, each having as much commonality as possible to make building, repairing and staffing the fleet as easy and efficient as possible, instead of dozens of different designs.
As far as post war composition, I would envision at minimum:
3-5 Sovereign class.
The capital flagships, centerpieces of individual fleets and the crown jewels of Starfleeet as a whole. Two would be specifically earmarked for tours deep into the Delta and Gamma quadrants. The others are mostly around for when Starfleeet really needs to flex it's military, diplomatic and scientific muscles.
10-15 Galaxy class.
The standard top tier vessel. Mostly there for the kind of stuff we saw in TNG. Assigned to multiple sectors, usually only a few hours away from other ships.
20-30 Nebula class.
The little brother to the Galaxy. Not as big or prestigious, but it gets the job done. Assigned 2-4 sectors to patrol. Usually operates with 1-2 Intrepid class ships nearby, assisting each other.
60-150 Intrepid class and variants*
The go anywhere, do anything ship of the fleet. Usually assigned to one sector. Anything too big for one or two ships to handle, call in a Nebula.
X Defiant class**
Y Merian/Sgt. G class***
* Changes to the basic intrepid class design optimized for a specific task. They're pretty much still an Intrepid class ship, but they are given a different class name to distinguish them from a standard Intrepid. Taking head cannon into account, I see a small number modified with extra crew space for evac/assault duties (Okinawa Class), high capacity basic medical/triage facilities (Kelly Class), and extra tactical systems (Perun class), just to name a few.
** Every Federation starbase is assigned at least two, with strategic or high risk bases hosting as many as twelve. Used similarly to the Defiant in DS9 for local patrol, investigation and defense.
*** Hundreds, in every configuration imaginable. Special tasks include salvage, recovery, mine clearance and technology testing.
Further, I would also think starfleeet would finally start looking beyond our home galaxy. 1-2 special projects designed from the ground up to be intergalactic vessels, starting with unmanned Quantum Slipstream equipped probes or some such.
Since my first post, I've done a lot of contemplating and digestion on the subject, and I've come up with a pretty good picture of how I see Starfleeet rebuilding.
First and foremost, as has been said before, older ships would certainly be repaired and updated, mostly using parts pulled from newer, better equipped ships. They would largely serve as a stop-gap until the newer, more homogeneous fleet could be completed, before being retired to routine scientific/utility work. They would serve largely as the auxiliary fleet once the main postwar fleet came online. Many could even end up sold or loaned out to Federation members with the specific clause that they be returned to Starfleeet upon request.
The oldest, less capable among them would largely be mothballed or scrapped outright to free up resources for newer designs. The surviving Constellation and Oberth class ships and most if not all single ship classes would be scrapped.
A limited number of surviving Miranda's might be retained, largely operating with skeleton crews as rescue and recovery ships or armed freighters
Interesting topic. I came up with a design for a post-war rebuilding-the-fleet ship.
The idea is that by using flat deck plates, construction times are cut by as much as 50%, so they can field a whole fleet much faster than one made of traditional starships. The downside to the design is the expected lifespan is reduced; without curves and bends, the flat-panel hull can't take the stresses as well. (Hint: Why do you think the hood of your car has crease lines? It's not just for cool looks.)
So, the above image is the peacetime patrol configuration. It has two photon torpedoes and five pairs of phasers, plus a pair of point-defense phasers. This ship is "balanced" with ability to handle all sorts of missions; it has labs and cargo for science and exploration, and it has enough weapons to put up a decent fight if it has to.
If you look carefully, you can see a seamline just below the twin deflector dishes. The lower three-deck section detaches (the ship can NOT fly without it) and can be replaced with one of several skids: combat, flagship, carrier, ground-troop transport, etc, etc. The basic combat version, for example, adds another pair of photon tubes and four phasers, at the expense of labs and cargo. Skids are stored at star bases and can be swapped out in a matter of a day or two.
The idea being that if a war kicks off, a fleet of the standard patrol design can fight a defensive battle while some ships are sent to swap out the skids. Those combat ships replace patrol ships on the front lines, which in turn go in to "upgrade" to their wartime combat skids. In theory, the entire fleet can switch from a peacetime mission to a war footing in a matter of two or three weeks.
Fully agree that something like this would become the workhorse of the fleet, replacing the Oberth and Constellation classes outright. This little honey has more space and muscle than the Oberth, both tactical and energy-wise, and it's modularity and ease of construction make it, for lack of a better term, somewhat expendable.
It's no major loss if a crew has to evacuate and scuttle in the event of an emergency.
Again I agree. Mostly.
Starfleet would most likely stick with proven designs with updates or modifications based of the lessons learned during the "decade of conflict."
Far as numbers and composition, I would see them moving to a unified main fleet, using a sort of tierd structure that focusses more on a ships place within the fleet as opposed to it's intended role, which is what it's seems like Starfleet was working towards when the Borg showed up. 8-10 classes, each having as much commonality as possible to make building, repairing and staffing the fleet as easy and efficient as possible, instead of dozens of different designs.
As far as post war composition, I would envision at minimum:
3-5 Sovereign class.
The capital flagships, centerpieces of individual fleets and the crown jewels of Starfleeet as a whole. Two would be specifically earmarked for tours deep into the Delta and Gamma quadrants. The others are mostly around for when Starfleeet really needs to flex it's military, diplomatic and scientific muscles.
10-15 Galaxy class.
The standard top tier vessel. Mostly there for the kind of stuff we saw in TNG. Assigned to multiple sectors, usually only a few hours away from other ships.
20-30 Nebula class.
The little brother to the Galaxy. Not as big or prestigious, but it gets the job done. Assigned 2-4 sectors to patrol. Usually operates with 1-2 Intrepid class ships nearby, assisting each other.
60-150 Intrepid class and variants*
The go anywhere, do anything ship of the fleet. Usually assigned to one sector. Anything too big for one or two ships to handle, call in a Nebula.
X Defiant class**
Y Merian/Sgt. G class***
* Changes to the basic intrepid class design optimized for a specific task. They're pretty much still an Intrepid class ship, but they are given a different class name to distinguish them from a standard Intrepid. Taking head cannon into account, I see a small number modified with extra crew space for evac/assault duties (Okinawa Class), high capacity basic medical/triage facilities (Kelly Class), and extra tactical systems (Perun class), just to name a few.
** Every Federation starbase is assigned at least two, with strategic or high risk bases hosting as many as twelve. Used similarly to the Defiant in DS9 for local patrol, investigation and defense.
*** Hundreds, in every configuration imaginable. Special tasks include salvage, recovery, mine clearance and technology testing.
Further, I would also think starfleeet would finally start looking beyond our home galaxy. 1-2 special projects designed from the ground up to be intergalactic vessels, starting with unmanned Quantum Slipstream equipped probes or some such.
One question that comes to mind...with post war refit/tweaking, could some of the Frankenstein fleet rise to the level of mediocrity?
If any survived maybe. Some might be returned to the yards to get finished as their original designs, put in mothballs as another backup combat force, or refit for any number of uses around the Federation.
They could even be partly stripped of sensitive materials and sold to friendly powers (Like Bajor shortly before they joined the Federation), or provided as local defense forces for various Federation worlds (like Betazed)
They could even be partly stripped of sensitive materials and sold to friendly powers (Like Bajor shortly before they joined the Federation), or provided as local defense forces for various Federation worlds (like Betazed)
Or then there never was any Frankenstein fleet. Just standard starships from various eras - the Jupp the only one with obvious TOS movie era characteristics, a fair number of ships with Excelsior traits that supposedly go with the next era, and then just a couple of TNG era ships with Voyager style hulls.
Out of the whole lot, only a single ship "combines eras" in a noteworthy fashion - the merging of E-A nacelles and Voyager hull in the Elkins "skips an era" and looks plenty wrong. Then again, we never saw the Elkins...
Timo Saloniemi
Out of the whole lot, only a single ship "combines eras" in a noteworthy fashion - the merging of E-A nacelles and Voyager hull in the Elkins "skips an era" and looks plenty wrong. Then again, we never saw the Elkins...
Timo Saloniemi
I wholeheartedly agree. The only reason why Sternbach's tech manual states that the ships were cobbled together from parts of other ships was that IRL he doesn't like kitbashed models of that nature (and that's fine, as I don't either), and instead of acknowledging that they were actual ships classes, gave them an in-universe origin like their IRL counterparts.
I prefer to think that in that instance, the Elkins did receive older temporary engines to fight in the war until its regular engines could be built. When Judy Elkins built that model, I'm not sure why she didn't just use the runabout nacelles, since she used the runabout pylons.
Would Star Fleet seek to build-in effect-a replacement for the Miranda class? A middling sized work horse?
I recall a fan design that looked like a Miranda-ized version of a Galaxy (but smaller than a Nebula). Another fan design, the ShihKar class, was basically a modernized Miranda. Sgt_G's concept might be a contender. Another suggested replacement is Saber/Sabre class-a war time version was proposed that used flat plates instead of curves.
Of course, the Merian class seems to something along these lines.
I recall a fan design that looked like a Miranda-ized version of a Galaxy (but smaller than a Nebula). Another fan design, the ShihKar class, was basically a modernized Miranda. Sgt_G's concept might be a contender. Another suggested replacement is Saber/Sabre class-a war time version was proposed that used flat plates instead of curves.
Of course, the Merian class seems to something along these lines.
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I think there's a good chance that
Nebula : Galaxy
Miranda : Constitution
in that they are similar in size and similar in capabilities, with the Miranda and Nebula being slightly less than their bigger brothers.
But Starfleet had at most a couple dozen Galaxies, so I don't see them building huge numbers of Nebulas either. (Certainly more than Galaxies, but probably not more than low single-digit hundreds).
But Starfleet was still using the old Miranda class well into the war, and lots of them got blown up.
So I would agree that Starfleet is looking to build a modern successor to the Miranda class. Not as capable as a Nebula, but better than a Miranda (if only slightly) and around the same size.
I think that may actually be what the Intrepid was meant for. If not, it would be something around that size.
I think that, in the immediate aftermath of the war, ships that had been under construction at the end of the war would be completed. For example, Defiant class ships, despite their design flaws.
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