“Jean-Luc Picard is back”: will new Picard show eclipse Discovery?

[jaime]

It's not on the same scale or in back to back episodes. It does take a toll on the actors. There's not a regular character who is in constant full head makeup for the entire series.

It probably could be done, there just wasn't the budget to allow it. Although some of the behind the scenes material mentions how much 3D printing has sped up the process and allowed them to make more unique pieces. Old Trek was limited by the budget and the reality of TV production at the time. They probably had a few months to a few weeks to design, mold and use an alien makeup or new character.

Conversely you did t need HD detail. And yeah Buffy didn’t have a constant cast member in makeup, but I strongly suggest Westmore could have done it on Trek.
The reality is the redesign is a redesign for the sake of it...Klingons could have looked like this back then, and the Klingons now could look like they did then now. The tech isn’t radically different.
Silicone and some of the newer variants is about the only radical leap in makeup FX. That and everyone being more interested in it.
I am sure Neville would talk about the advances in design from Z Brush, but really, he’s shown that can be outperformed by a dude or dudette with some clay on face off. That tech and 3D printing are just a divergence, originally for taking trad work into games and such like...working the other way is almost counter intuitive.

 

[Rahul]

Not really. The current Klingons have more detail, are able to be shown in extreme closeup without revealing any obvious tells of where skin meets latex and still allow the performance to be as expressive. They certainly wouldn't be able to create as many different ones. They could have done a full head piece, but the actor would have been extremely limited. Even the Cardassians aren't fully covered. The actual latex piece is mainly the forehead, nose, cheeks and the sides of the neck. The rest is basically painting and a few small pieces.

I have a feeling that a lot of the klingon re-design comes down to too much focus on the details (skin has to be HD-ready!), and a severe lack of keeping sight of the overall picture.

It's the same with the Saurian in the new trailer: In close-ups, the details (like the lip, and scales) have never looked more realistic. But if you look at the design as a whole, I don't really see an improvement over, say, the Gorn from TOS. Quite the opposite actually - both reptile suits make subtle acting utterly impossible, but the Gorn looks way less like a regular human body with a fake reptile head then the Saurian does.

It's the same with the klingons: Back then, they could have put THAT much latex in their faces as well (it wouldn't have looked as good in HD, but the overall feel would have been the same). But they knew they would have many, many klingon characters that needed to be able to act and express themselves. Thus they set out to keep the most important parts of the face - the eyes and mouths - free for the actors.

Now, Saru works just fine, despite the same insane amount of prosthetics. But that is entirely on the performance of Doug Jones, who is a professional mime, and is able to act the hell out of his body. He doesn't really needs all of his face to convey emotions. That isn't a case for most actors, and especially not for some bit parts. That's why the DIscovery klingons - despite having more intricate make-up than ever - all feel the same: They can't act under the prosthetics, their faces always rest in the same position. It's only spoken dialogue. That's why all the klingon characters feel to have the same character, because the acgtors can't differentiate their performances from each other.

 

[jaime]

I have a feeling that a lot of the klingon re-design comes down to too much focus on the details (skin has to be HD-ready!), and a severe lack of keeping sight of the overall picture.

It's the same with the Saurian in the new trailer: In close-ups, the details (like the lip, and scales) have never looked more realistic. But if you look at the design as a whole, I don't really see an improvement over, say, the Gorn from TOS. Quite the opposite actually - both reptile suits make subtle acting utterly impossible, but the Gorn looks way less like a regular human body with a fake reptile head then the Saurian does.

It's the same with the klingons: Back then, they could have put THAT much latex in their faces as well (it wouldn't have looked as good in HD, but the overall feel would have been the same). But they knew they would have many, many klingon characters that needed to be able to act and express themselves. Thus they set out to keep the most important parts of the face - the eyes and mouths - free for the actors.

Now, Saru works just fine, despite the same insane amount of prosthetics. But that is entirely on the performance of Doug Jones, who is a professional mime, and is able to act the hell out of his body. He doesn't really needs all of his face to convey emotions. That isn't a case for most actors, and especially not for some bit parts. That's why the DIscovery klingons - despite having more intricate make-up than ever - all feel the same: They can't act under the prosthetics, their faces always rest in the same position. It's only spoken dialogue. That's why all the klingon characters feel to have the same character, because the acgtors can't differentiate their performances from each other.

Rene as Odo also did this...he went all in on mask acting. Which is incredible when you look at the emotions he can get through the mask and using body language. Heck...simply flopping Odos otherwise in place hair communicates a lot.
Hair alone would help.

 

[Dukhat]

Standard amount of merch. Model kit inbound, expensive ‘studio model’ and a smaller Die cast one from different companies. More than we got for the enterprise D in series one of TNG.

Lore is hardly a buzzword. It’s been around a while.

That’s not true at all. There was lots of Enterprise-D-related merchandise available when TNG premiered.

And nothing changes the fact that the usage of the word “lore” in the context of DSC still makes it meaningless. The ‘60’s Batman TV show and the Christopher Nolan films share the exact same lore, but no one’s going to argue that they take place in the same continuity.

 

[BillJ]

And nothing changes the fact that the usage of the word “lore” in the context of DSC still makes it meaningless. The ‘60’s Batman TV show and the Christopher Nolan films share the exact same lore, but no one’s going to argue that they take place in the same continuity.

Come on, man. We all know that Adam West doing the Batusi is in the same exact continuity as The Dark Knight trilogy!

 

[Dukhat]

Come on, man. We all know that Adam West doing the Batusi is in the same exact continuity as The Dark Knight trilogy!

Yeah, I was waiting the entire time I was watching The Dark Night Rises for Joseph Gordon Levitt to change into a pair of green tidy-whities, and it never happened. Fuck you, Christopher Nolan, for not keeping to the lore.

 

[jaime]

That’s not true at all. There was lots of Enterprise-D-related merchandise available when TNG premiered.

And nothing changes the fact that the usage of the word “lore” in the context of DSC still makes it meaningless. The ‘60’s Batman TV show and the Christopher Nolan films share the exact same lore, but no one’s going to argue that they take place in the same continuity.

I remember a galoob die cast toy, and model kit. When it premiered in 88?
Tbh, they have shot themselves in the foot merchandise wise. No kid audience.

They don’t share the exact same lore. Where’s O’Hara.

Edit: I should add...for the hundredth time.

Batman is an adaptation. It’s amazing how little this seems to be realised.

 

[Mudd]

Not really. The current Klingons have more detail, are able to be shown in extreme closeup without revealing any obvious tells of where skin meets latex and still allow the performance to be as expressive.

There was nothing "expressive" in the attempts of the poor STD actors to mumble their dialogue through those Halloween teeth and heavy masks.

 

[TrickyDickie]

There was nothing "expressive" in the attempts of the poor STD actors to mumble their dialogue through those Halloween teeth and heavy masks.

The first time I saw the new Klingons, I immediately thought of this character from Conan the Destroyer in 1984:

I'll take the revised Klingon ships any day over the new Klingons themselves....

 

[BillJ]

I'll take the revised Klingon ships any day over the new Klingons themselves....

I wished they'd flush the whole lot.

 

[BillJ]

Batman is an adaptation. It’s amazing how little this seems to be realised.

So is Discovery. It is an adaptation of material from the 1960's. And much like The Dark Knight trilogy and the 1960's Batman TV series, I expect about as much continuity.

 

[jaime]

So is Discovery. It is an adaptation of material from the 1960's. And much like The Dark Knight trilogy and the 1960's Batman TV series, I expect about as much continuity.

It’s not an adaptation, it’s a continuation. About the only Trek that drifts close to an adaptation was Into Darkness.

 

[BillJ]

It’s not an adaptation, it’s a continuation. About the only Trek that drifts close to an adaptation was Into Darkness.

While it isn't an adaptation in the strictest sense of the word. It is along the same lines as the new Lost in Space. Bringing the material to new audiences.

For me, reboot fits the best though.

 

[jaime]

While it isn't an adaptation in the strictest sense of the word. It is along the same lines as the new Lost in Space. Bringing the material to new audiences.

For me, reboot fits the best though.

I am aware of your views on it as a reboot, but even I can’t stretch to it being an adaptation. Though I suppose from a certain perspective, we’re you to retell the same story, in the same medium, adaptation is a better term than reboot...like the old kids adaptations of various adult works. Especially since they are ‘adapting for modern audiences’.
I wouldn’t call DSC an adaptation until we get the Kirk era enterprise on a mission we have seen before.

 

[Mudd]

Yeah, "reboot" is more accurate as the show goes on...

 

[fireproof78]

It’s not an adaptation, it’s a continuation. About the only Trek that drifts close to an adaptation was Into Darkness.

Or First Contact

Or TMP. Or Nemesis.

 

[jaime]

Or First Contact

Or TMP. Or Nemesis.

TMP drifts ver close. The other two don’t remotely do so.

 

[fireproof78]

TMP drifts ver close. The other two don’t remotely do so.

It's a joke. I do that. Hence the emoji.

 

[jaime]

It's a joke. I do that. Hence the emoji.

I couldn’t be sure...these days....

 

[fireproof78]

I couldn’t be sure...these days....

Sarcasm. A foreign concept