Chancellor L’Rell and Klingon culture moves backwards in a century

[Timo]

If anything, Trek generally treated Klingons as being gender-indifferent whenever women did make an appearance. That is, none of the females were in a subjugated or otherwise sidetracked position - they served in all sorts of roles, were listened to, were not singled out for their gender, etc. They just appeared much less seldom than males, which alone would have been excuse enough for them not being explicit starship commanders or political bigwigs (the latter being balanced out by the explicit existence of a female Chancellor).

Until DS9 decided to "fix" that, by "giving" the females "powers". So now Klingon women own the Houses' fortunes and decide on the inheritance. And they still don't appear any more frequently, or as starship commanders or political bigwigs.

I'd have been happier with the "not on my Council" thing being taken a bit further, to suggest that women were downsliding under the 24th century rule. But retroactive continuity is continuity nevertheless, and now we see a steady state of gender inequality instead.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

...
Until DS9 decided to "fix" that, by "giving" the females "powers". So now Klingon women own the Houses' fortunes and decide on the inheritance. And they still don't appear any more frequently, or as starship commanders or political bigwigs.
...

There is real-life precedent for this, with some cultures considering family finances to be part of the private domestic sphere managed by women, whereas men participate in areas of the public sphere such as politics.

Kor

 

[Timo]

Indeed. It's just that this came out of nowhere (much like the fact of the Empire not having an Emperor, another plausible concept with RW precedent) when it was needed the least. Until then, Klingons appeared gender-indifferent in everything that mattered: women and men fought, ate, bantered, did politics and generally lived and died as not just "equals" (implying shortcomings were balanced by advantages) but as one and the same (there were neither shortcomings nor advantages to having a specific gender). Except that men were seen doing it more often.

Which may have implied just about anything. Women stayed back where they could not be seen because men had dibs to life? Because men were ordered to do the dirty work while women led from behind? Because women were better at the consoles of the ship and men at boarding parties, and Klingons believed in meritocracy? Because the traditional gender roles in sex games extended to everyday life, and the Empire didn't want its frontline representatives hurling furniture at their alien counterparts?

We still don't know. But now the Klingon society "has always been" gender-inequal big time.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Awesome Possum]

Indeed. It's just that this came out of nowhere (much like the fact of the Empire not having an Emperor, another plausible concept with RW precedent) when it was needed the least. Until then, Klingons appeared gender-indifferent in everything that mattered: women and men fought, ate, bantered, did politics and generally lived and died as not just "equals" (implying shortcomings were balanced by advantages) but as one and the same (there were neither shortcomings nor advantages to having a specific gender). Except that men were seen doing it more often.

Which may have implied just about anything. Women stayed back where they could not be seen because men had dibs to life? Because men were ordered to do the dirty work while women led from behind? Because women were better at the consoles of the ship and men at boarding parties, and Klingons believed in meritocracy? Because the traditional gender roles in sex games extended to everyday life, and the Empire didn't want its frontline representatives hurling furniture at their alien counterparts?

We still don't know. But now the Klingon society "has always been" gender-inequal big time.

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, that's basically the traditional hunter/gatherer male/female belief structure that has always existed. It's just replacing it with warrior/tapping consoles. The reason it's changed is that the old shows was written by humans in a time when gender inequality was an accepted and barely questioned aspect of life, even up till the 90s/00s. TOS is even worse where women weren't allowed to be starship captains for some reason. Things have changed, so the writing has changed. All art reflects the culture it came from, Star Trek is no different. Culture changes so the art changes along with our views on the past. In time, even our present will be seen as too repressive and sexist along with our art.

So yes, the Klingons always had gender inequality, we just recognize it now. Just like how we recognize that a lot of Trek isn't as progressive as it once was.

 

[Timo]

I don't quite see what you mean. Klingons in the 1980s were so gender-equal that our great-grandchildren will still rub their hands in glee of the progressiveness shown there. Klingons today are so gender-inequal that our great-grandparents would be equally delighted at the Family Values so firmly upheld by this future television show thing.

We may have changed, for the "better" if one considers gender equality that. But the Klingons have changed for the worse in the meantime.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SPCTRE]

We may have changed, for the "better" if one considers gender equality that.

I am curious, Timo, what else might one consider gender equality?

 

[Timo]

The usual, when one says "equality" in any context: the evils of forced conformity, the injustice of the measures taken to boost those in need of boosting or to push down those standing too tall, the arbitrariness of measuring, the unclear mandate for doing the measuring.

I come from a country where equality in every field has been the one leading value or virtue for the entire existence of said country (so, just a century and counting now, as one might have guessed) - well ahead of liberty or loyalty or justice or strength or the other classics. The full range of arguments and measures has already been tried out, with the full range of results. So my angle on this is that equality shouldn't be difficult to do (even upstarts can manage it), but it also shouldn't be obsessed about, or it becomes a sordid mockery of itself (if it ain't broke). A bit of relativism should be inserted here, too, a bit of perspective on today's hottest fashions in value and virtue being but fads, just like any value or virtue in human history has been. It's never about the virtue, but about the balance that makes it work. And insisting on equality may lead to fatal imbalance down the road.

On this particular field of equality, we're down to the very roots of nobody having been created equal. Not only does gender equality have to take on the entire spectrum of inherent individual inequality of Man, but also all the prejudices and perceptions that exist on top of that, in a battlefield divided sharply in three: the men, the women, and those who really don't think there ought to be a battlefield at all. I'm personally taking the pacifist stance there: there's no good fight. Better to stay still than strive forward so hard that one slides back. But that's just me. And most of my country, it sometimes appears. Keeps us on top of those silly happiness polls. But the suicide statistics aren't fun reading...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Annorax849]

Maybe this was mentioned already, but Azetbur being Chancellor for 40 years is an inconsistency, since iirc they said KmPec was the longest reigning Chancellor, and that was less than 80 after TUC...

 

[Timo]

Indeed, the reign of Azetbur has not been described on screen at all. We only know it lasted for the duration of the sixth TOS movie. Or, more exactly, that she was "named Chancellor of the High Council in [her] father's place". Perhaps there are nuances to that, with her just holding the title until the next elections or whatever?

Memory Alpha conjectures that Azetbur signed the first Khitomer Accords, but stating even this much goes beyond the canon mandate. She may have been replaced right after the end credits of the movie rolled for all we know.

As Memory Beta tells us, the novels give her some 20 years of reign, culminating in a natural death (that is, she's assassinated by her right-hand man). No danger of contradicting K'Mpec's reign record there, especially as we don't know how long K'Mpec really reigned. But the "real truth" might be different, with both Azetbur and K'Mpec reigning for much shorter respective periods, perhaps mere years rather than decades each. It doesn't sound as if anybody would be expected to last long in that job, after all... Breaking records might be relatively easy for K'Mpec.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Yistaan]

Indeed, the reign of Azetbur has not been described on screen at all. We only know it lasted for the duration of the sixth TOS movie. Or, more exactly, that she was "named Chancellor of the High Council in [her] father's place". Perhaps there are nuances to that, with her just holding the title until the next elections or whatever?

Memory Alpha conjectures that Azetbur signed the first Khitomer Accords, but stating even this much goes beyond the canon mandate. She may have been replaced right after the end credits of the movie rolled for all we know.

As Memory Beta tells us, the novels give her some 20 years of reign, culminating in a natural death (that is, she's assassinated by her right-hand man). No danger of contradicting K'Mpec's reign record there, especially as we don't know how long K'Mpec really reigned. But the "real truth" might be different, with both Azetbur and K'Mpec reigning for much shorter respective periods, perhaps mere years rather than decades each. It doesn't sound as if anybody would be expected to last long in that job, after all... Breaking records might be relatively easy for K'Mpec.

Timo Saloniemi

Since K'Mpec was the longest Chancellor and since the game Klingon Academy is part of my headcanon, I assume K'Mpec reigned at least 30 years since Chancellor Lorak from Klingon Academy reigned 30 years. But yeah, it's non-canon http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Lorak .

Besides, L'Rell will probably overwrite Klingon Academy when her tenure overwrites Chancellor Durak's from the same game: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Durak . Unless L'Rell has a very short reign and is immediately replaced by Durak who also has a short reign.

 

[Tuskin38]

Can't overwrite non-canon material since it wasn't canon in the first place.

 

[Yistaan]

Can't overwrite non-canon material since it wasn't canon in the first place.

I suspect Star Trek Online is next on the chopping block thanks to the new Picard show.

 

[Tuskin38]

I suspect Star Trek Online is next on the chopping block thanks to the new Picard show.

Nah, they'll just pull the alternate timeline shtick.
That's how they got away from referencing the novels.

 

[Yistaan]

Nah, they'll just pull the alternate timeline shtick.
That's how they got away from referencing the novels.

An interesting idea is making the timeline change part of the story. STO can reveal that Picard actually died in 2399 in STO's timeline, and the player decides to go back in time and save him behind the scenes, creating the timeline in which the Picard show takes place.

The STO story can thus be adjusted after this quest to reveal the changed timeline in which Picard is alive and reflects the status of his show.

 

[CorporalClegg]

CBS is now more directly involved with STO than they have been in years.

*The smart play would be to take the game and cherry pick the litverse for something similar to SW's Legends.

 

[Qonundrum]

Research department - Fans think they want to see Prime Trek
Finance department - Ok, let's give them Prime Trek
Showrunners - Ok, let's give them Prime Trek
Finance - Also, make it 25% different
Showrunners - But won't it then mean it's not Prime
Finance - Research?
Research - Fans want Prime
Creative - 25% wtf?!? The'll never buy it's Prime
Finance - They have to
Showrunners - Ok, we'll just tell them it is
Finance - Okilly dokilly
Creative - But, but, but...
Everyone - STFU Creative, and close your Facebook account too!

Finance department? Wasn't all this due to legalese from various entities owning various rights to various franchises, hence no actual continuity?

Since the people who are actually CREATING DSC have unequivocally stated that it takes place in the Prime timeline...that ends the discussion right there. It is not our place to question them.

I mean, you don't have to LIKE the show, of course. If it's not your thing, then fine. But who are you to tell DSC's showrunners what it "is"? Only those involved in creating a show (or film, or novel, or whatever) can know for sure what that thing actually IS.

Maybe it's "Prime" to them is the Kelvin timeline, which makes more sense and that way nobody is wrong.

Societies regress all the time. Take the US right now. Poland. Hungary.

Iran & Lebanon. Cuba. Israel.

And the UK, France, Spain, Turkey, China... between the both of us there's still 183 to go. I wonder what the reason why is but only someone would have to be born yesterday to believe the problems started after 2016.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe it's "Prime" to them is the Kelvin timeline, which makes more sense and that way nobody is wrong.

DSC couldn't take place in the Kelvin timeline even if they wanted it to. Bad Robot (JJ Abrams' company) won't allow it.

 

[Noname Given]

I suspect Star Trek Online is next on the chopping block thanks to the new Picard show.

Unlikely as the Picard show takes place around 2403 - 2404 a full 5 years before STO begins in 2409; and the game in now in 2410. So unless they somehow kill off a major character from TNG that's in STO, or blow up another major Federation world, there's not much to contradict.

Also, the 'pitch' is a show around Picard 25 years post Nemesis - AFTER HIS CAREER IN STARFLEET IS ENDED... (in caps because a lot of people seem to be glossing over that aspect thinking somehow, he'll be back in command of a ship with all the old characters coming in as cameos.)

If they had pitched Mr. Stewart a "TNG Redux" show, he probably wouldn't have signed on. Remember he initially said 'No' until he had a meeting with the Producers who specifically said, "No, it won't be TNG 2.0..."<-- And that's when Stewart said, "Yes."

DSC couldn't take place in the Kelvin timeline even if they wanted it to. Bad Robot (JJ Abrams' company) won't allow it.

^^^
They don't have a say post ST: B as after JJ's three picture deal ended the "Kelvin Universe' rights went back to CBS (which is when they added Kelvin ships and a small Kelvin based storyline to STO.)

(Or, if they made a new deal to license the kelvin stuff back to Paramount/Bad Robot for JJ-Trek 4, CBS probably still retain a full say in how that stuff can be used.)

 

[Yistaan]

Unlikely as the Picard show takes place around 2403 - 2404 a full 5 years before STO begins in 2409; and the game in now in 2410. So unless they somehow kill off a major character from TNG that's in STO, or blow up another major Federation world, there's not much to contradict.

Also, the 'pitch' is a show around Picard 25 years post Nemesis - AFTER HIS CAREER IN STARFLEET IS ENDED... (in caps because a lot of people seem to be glossing over that aspect thinking somehow, he'll be back in command of a ship with all the old characters coming in as cameos.)

If they had pitched Mr. Stewart a "TNG Redux" show, he probably wouldn't have signed on. Remember he initially said 'No' until he had a meeting with the Producers who specifically said, "No, it won't be TNG 2.0..."<-- And that's when Stewart said, "Yes."

I wasn't talking about Picard the character--it's hard to see how he could contradict anything himself as he's not even in the game. But the state of the galaxy--if they had a Klingon chancellor who isn't J'mpok in the show, that would contradict the game which has the direct succession from Martok to J'mpok as a key part of the storyline. Stuff like this.

 

[Tuskin38]

Maybe it's "Prime" to them is the Kelvin timeline, which makes more sense and that way nobody is wrong.

DSC couldn't take place in the Kelvin timeline even if they wanted it to. Bad Robot (JJ Abrams' company) won't allow it.

Also DSC's story already contradicts the Kelvin timeline.

Also, the 'pitch' is a show around Picard 25 years post Nemesis

IIRC they said 20 years not 25.