No, the Cloak was the more devastating weapon as like Kirk and Spock discuss the event of an invisible Romulan attack force upon unprepared Federation or Earth in this matter colonies!
JB
JB
After the Balance of Terror, "Then What?"
- Thread starter James Staley
- Start date
Whether the "Planet of Galactic Peace" was founded before or after "Balance of Terror" is a mystery. The problem is that there are two different and contradictory statements about the time interval between the first season of TOS and the movies of the 1980s, and it is rather careless to simply assume that is not a chronological problem.
Here are some possible solutions to that contradiction:
1) The Nimbus III Treaty was negotiated (by subspace radio on the Romulan side) first, and then a few years later the Romulans decided to test their new weapons on the Neutral Zone outposts. The attack in "Balance of Terror" failed, and colonists from Romulan subject planets arrived at Nimbus III sometime later and eventually described what they knew about the Romulans to other colonists including Federation and Klingon undercover agents. Thus the Federation learned of the true appearance of the Romulans shortly after "Balance of Terror" revealed it anyway.
2) Romulan years are about 0.75 times as long as Earth, Federation, or Starfleet years, so that Dar's "Twenty years" was more or less equal to Kirk and Khan's "fifteen years".
3) Caitlin Dar was a very imprecise speaker, and said "twenty years" because the interval was between about 16.0 years and 25.0 years and she couldn't bother to figure it out exactly. Thus it could have been only fifteen years.
4) Despite what Khan said, Kirk did revisit Ceti Alpha V one or more times (maybe Chekov and khan met on one of those later visits) and the last such visit was about five years after "Space Seed" and about fifteen years before Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, thus making Dar's "twenty years" accurate.
5) There was a significant interval between Kirk and friends arriving on Vulcan in the Klingon ship near the end of Star trek III: The Search for Spock and the beginning of their Vulcan exile mentioned at the beginning of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
6) There was a significant interval between the climax of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, when Kirk released the whales near the Golden Gate, and the courtroom scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
7) There was a significant interval between the courtroom scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home and the last scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home where Kirk and his friends bordered the new Enterprise and took her for a shakedown cruise.
8) A combination of two or more of the above.
(For example, I believe in 1989 Harve Bennett or someone said that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was six months after Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. It doesn't make any sense for Star Trek V: The Final Frontier to be six months after the last scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home where Kirk and his friends bordered the new Enterprise and took her for a shakedown cruise, but it could make sense for Star Trek V: The Final Frontier to be six months after the climax of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, when Kirk released the whales near the Golden Gate, due to a combination of 6 and 7. That would help with the time interval a bit)
9) "Balance of Terror" is in an alternate universe where the Romulan war faction convinced the government to attack the outposts, while "Space Seed" and the Star Trek movies of the 1980s are in an alternate universe where the Romulan peace faction convinced the government to sign the Nimbus III treaty instead. Thus "Balance of Terror" never happened in the alternate universe of "Space Seed" and the Star Trek movies of the 1980s and vice versa.
Here is an explanation of the chronological problem:
"Balance of Terror" was the 9th episode of 80 produced, the 14th episode of 80 broadcast, and had a beginning stardate of 1709.1. "Space Seed" was the 25th episode of 80 produced and the 22nd episode of 80 broadcast, and had a beginning stardate of 3141.9.
The opening narration of each episode mentions the five year mission. Icheb's history of Starfleet in the Voyager episode "Q2" mentions:
http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/716.htm
Which proves that the five year mission was real in any canon that includes "Q2".
In Star Trek: The Motion Picture:
So Kirk was "out there dealing with unknowns" for about five years. Thus I estimate that the duration of the five year mission could be about 5.0 to 6.0 years, or more loosely about 4.0 to 7.0 years to allow for human imprecision.
So one eightieth of the five year mission would be about 0.05 to 0.0875 years, or about 18.265 to 31.959 days.
In production order "Balance of Terror" was 16 episodes before "Space Seed", or about 0.8 to 1.4 years if the episodes were evenly spaced. In broadcast order "Balance of Terror" was 8 episodes before "Space Seed" or about 0.4 to 0.7 years if the episodes were evenly spaced.
In stardate order, "Balance of Terror" has the 8th lowest stardate and "space Seed" has the 24th lowest stardate. Thus "Balance of Terror" is 16 episodes before "Space Seed" in stardate order, or about 0.8 to 1.4 years if the episodes were evenly spaced.
The lowest TOS stardate is 1312.4 in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and the highest TOS stardate is the last in "All Our Yesterdays", 5943.9, so there are at least 4,631.5 stardates in 4.0 to 7.0 years. Thus there are at least 661.642 to 1,157.875 stardates per year if stardates correspond to any planetary time. Since there are 1,432.8 stardates between the first stardates in "Balance of Terror" and "Space Seed", there can be no more than 1.2374 to 2.1655 years between "Balance of Terror" and "Space Seed", if stardates correspond to any planetary time.
So "Space Seed" should be about 0.4 to 2.1655 years after "Balance of Terror" according to those calculations.
In Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan Khan says:
And Kirk says:
So if Kirk and Khan were speaking precisely it would be 15.0 to 16.0 years since Khan and Kirk last saw each other. Or if they were speaking with typical human vagueness it might be sometime between 14.0 years and 17.0 years. Since Kirk says he hasn't seen Khan for 15 years, it is possible that Kirk checked on Khan's status some years after "Space Seed". The way that Khan says that the supermen were "...marooned here fifteen years ago..." and later says:
Seems to indicate that Kirk never saw Khan since leaving him on Ceti Alpha V soon after the end of "Space Seed".
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock begins soon after the last scene in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, so we might arbitrarily assume it begins 0.0000 to 0.1000 years, or 0.000 to 35.525 days, later. The characters travel to the planet Vulcan at the end.
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home begins:
"In the third month" means between 2.0 months and 3.0 months. Since a Gregorian calendar month is 0.0766 to 0.0848 of a Gregorian calendar year, we might assume that "in the third month" means roughly about 0.1533 to 0.2544 years have passed since "our Vulcan exile" began, which may have been when they reached Vulcan or sometime afterward with a change in their legal status.
The main plot of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home happens in just a few days, and then after an unspecified time interval there is a court proceeding, and then after another unspecified time interval they board the new starship Enterprise.
When Star Trek V:The Final Frontier begins the new starship Enterprise is seen to have some flaws:
So apparently the new Enterprise revealed a lot of flaws during the shakedown cruise which probably ended early. They returned to Earth and most of the crew went on shore leave for the three weeks Kirk gave Scott to fix things, and apparently Kirk was recalled to the ship before the three weeks were over. I guess that about four weeks, or about 0.0766 years, is the longest possible time interval since Scott began fixing things.
So add it up:
"Space Seed" begins about 0.4 to 2.1665 years after "Balance of Terror".
The events of "Space Seed" should take about 1 to 10 days, or 0.0027 to 0.0273 years. Total 0.4027 to 2.1938 years.
It should take 1 day (0.0027 years) to 0.2 years to settle Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Total 0.4054 to 2.3938 years.
Kirk and Khan say "15 years" 14.000 to 17.000 years later. Total 14.4054 to 19.3938 years.
The rest of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan takes 1 to 10 days, or 0.0027 to 0.0273 years. Total 14.4081 to 19.4211 years.
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock begins 1 day to 30 days later, or 0.0027 to 0.0821 years. Total 14.4902 to 19.5032 years.
Star Trek III: The Search for Spock takes 1.0 to 10 days or 0.0027 to 0.0273 years before the Klingon ship reaches Vulcan. Total 14.4929 to 19.5305 years.
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home begins roughly about 0.1533 to 0.2544 years after the Vulcan exile begins. Total 14.6462 to 19.7849 years.
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home takes 1.0 to 10 days, or 0.0027 to 0.0273 years, before Kirk releases George and Gracie near the Golden Gate. Total 14.6489 to 19.8122 years.
Courtroom scene.
Kirk & friends board the new Enterprise. Shakedown cruise begins.
Skakedown cruise of the new Enterprise lasts for about 1.0 to 100 days, or about 0.0027 to 0.273 7 years. Total 14.6516 to 20.0859 years.
Three week repair period, lasting less than four weeks, or about 0.0766 years. Total 14.6516 to 20.1625 years.
Star Trek V: The Final Frontier begins.
And near the beginning of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier Romulan representative Caitlin Dar says:
If we assume that the three governments made that treaty after "Balance of Terror" Star Trek V: The Final Frontier should be 20 years after the treaty and an unknown period of time more after "Balance of Terror".
Maybe Caitlin Dar meant 20.0 to 21.0 years when she said "twenty years ago". Or maybe she meant about 19.0 to 22.0 years.
And one might ask, what does it matter? There is a small degree of overlap, about 1.1625 years, between an interval of 14.6516 to 20.1625 years and an interval of 19.0000 to 22.0000 years.
But what if Kirk and Khan meant a period between 15.0 and 16.0 years when they said "fifteen years" and Caitlin Dar meant a period between 20.0 and 21.0 years when she said "twenty years". In that case the maximum possible interval between "Balance of Terror" and would be 19.1625 years, and Caitlin Dar would mean at least 20.0000 years, a difference of at least 0.8375 years.
And note the cases where I assumed a time interval could be longer than some people might consider it to be, thus reducing their estimate of the possible time interval between "Balance of Terror" and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. And even the estimates which make it possible, such as in the extreme upper parts of my estimate range, everything is very tight and there is little room to modify the spacing of events in case that is needed for other parts of someone's chronology.
And note that the interval between "Balance of Terror" and "Space Seed" is much larger when estimated by the stardates of those episodes than if the interval is estimated by their production order or their broadcast order. So what is the interval between Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier when estimated by their stardates?
Caitlin Dar's statement is made shortly after stardate 8454.1 in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, while Khan's and Kirk's statements in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan are made shortly after Checkov makes a log on the Reliant with stardate 8130.4. The range of stardates in this period is 323.7 stardates.
In the TOS era there are at least 661.642 to 1,157.875 stardates per year if stardates correspond to any planetary time. Thus 323.7 stardates correspond to 0.2795638 to 0.4892 years, or less, if the stardate systems are the same in the TOS and TOS movie eras.
What if the stardate system in the TOS movie era is different from that in the TOS era? The stardate 8210.3 in Star trek III: The Search for Spock is sometime before Kirk and his friends begin their Vulcan exile. The stardate 8390 in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home is during the third month of that Vulcan exile. Thus there area about 179.7 stardate units in a time period of about about 0.1533 to 0.2544 years, if zero time passes between 8210.3 and the beginning of the Vulcan exile. Thus there seem to be about 706.3679 to 1172.2133 stardate units per year in the era of TOS movies, which closely overlaps with the range for TOS episodes, and makes 323.7 stardates equal about 0.2761 to 0.4582 years.
So going by stardates the time interval between the statements of Kirk and Khan, on one hand, and Caitlin Dar on the other, would be between 0.2761 and 0.4892 years. Adding that to 14.4054 to 19.3938 years between "Balance of Terror" and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan makes a total span of 14.6815 to 19.8520 years.
If you don't use stardates to find the time spans between various episodes and movies then."Space Seed" is about 0.4 to 1.4 years after "Balance of Terror".
And if you then add it up:
The events of "Space Seed" should take about 1 to 10 days, or 0.0027 to 0.0273 years. Total 0.4027 to 1.4273 years.
It should take 1 day (0.0027 years) to 0.2 years to settle Khan on Ceti Alpha V. Total 0.4054 to 1.6237 years.
Kirk and Khan say "15 years" 14.000 to 17.000 years later. Total 14.4054 to 18.6273 years.
And Caitlin Dar should speak of "twenty years" 0.2492 to 0.7687 years later, or 14.6546 to 19.3960 years after "Balance of Terror".
So in order to get the interval above 20.0000 years one has to use stardates to find the time span between the TOS episodes, but ignore the stardates when calculating the possible time spans between the TOS era movies made in the 1980s.
If stardates are used in both eras, or if stardates are not used in either era, the longest possible duration is less than 20.0000 years, and then one has to assume that Caitlin Dar was speaking loosely to enough to say "twenty years" when the actual time interval was either less than 19.8520 years or less than 19.3960 years.
And remember that it would be very unusual for the Romulan government to agree to the Nimbus III treaty immediately after "Balance of Terror". There could easily be months or years of negotiation between the two events.
So here are a few possible solutions:
1) The Nimbus III Treaty was negotiated (by subspace radio on the Romulan side) first, and then a few years later the Romulans decided to test their new weapons on the Neutral Zone outposts. The attack in "Balance of Terror" failed, and colonists from Romulan subject planets arrived at Nimbus III sometime later and eventually described what they knew about the Romulans to other colonists including Federation and Klingon undercover agents. Thus the Federation learned of the true appearance of the Romulans shortly after "Balance of Terror" revealed it anyway.
2) Romulan years are about 0.75 times as long as Earth, Federation, or Starfleet years, so that Dar's "Twenty years" was more or less equal to Kirk and Khan's "fifteen years".
3) Caitlin Dar was a very imprecise speaker, and said "twenty years" because the interval was between about 16.0 years and 25.0 years and she couldn't bother to figure it out exactly. Thus it could have been only fifteen years.
4) Despite what Khan said, Kirk did revisit Ceti Alpha V one or more times (maybe Chekov and khan met on one of those later visits) and the last such visit was about five years after "Space Seed" and about fifteen years before Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, thus making Dar's "twenty years" accurate.
5) There was a significant interval between Kirk and friends arriving on Vulcan in the Klingon ship near the end of Star trek III: The Search for Spock and the beginning of their Vulcan exile mentioned at the beginning of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
6) There was a significant interval between the climax of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, when Kirk released the whales near the Golden Gate, and the courtroom scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
7) There was a significant interval between the courtroom scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home and the last scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home where Kirk and his friends bordered the new Enterprise and took her for a shakedown cruise.
8) A combination of two or more of the above.
(For example, I believe in 1989 Harve Bennett or someone said that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was six months after Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. It doesn't make any sense for Star Trek V: The Final Frontier to be six months after the last scene in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home where Kirk and his friends bordered the new Enterprise and took her for a shakedown cruise, but it could make sense for Star Trek V: The Final Frontier to be six months after the climax of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, when Kirk released the whales near the Golden Gate, due to a combination of 6 and 7. That would help with the time interval a bit)
9) "Balance of Terror" is in an alternate universe where the Romulan war faction convinced the government to attack the outposts, while "Space Seed" and the Star Trek movies of the 1980s are in an alternate universe where the Romulan peace faction convinced the government to sign the Nimbus III treaty instead. Thus "Balance of Terror" never happened in the alternate universe of "Space Seed" and the Star Trek movies of the 1980s and vice versa.
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Yeah, the cloak was easily foiled. They were tracking the Romulan ship with ease with sensors. The plasma weapon almost got them.
Do they? I don't recall that. They talk a lot about the aggressive nature of the Romulans. And Stiles interjects his racist implications. And McCoy frets about the number lives that will be lost.
Funnily enough, that's the exact same solution I used in my old Star Trek chronology!
The rest of your post is indeed long, but sometimes it's useful to include the calculations (and I certainly appreciate it). Perhaps including the nuts and bolts as a quote would avoid the dreaded "wall of text"?
BTW, you appear to have included your 9 points of possible solutions TWICE in your post - was that intentional? As far as I can see they are the same
So, to summarize and fudge dates a little, Nimbus III was settled in a tri-lateral agreement between the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans after the events of Balance of Terror and Errand of Mercy during the first season of TOS and most likely the first year of the 5 year mission.
Perhaps Nimbus III was a condition of the Organian Peace Treaty. It most likely was near the intersection of all 3 rivals. Perhaps it wasn't a condition of the treaty but was spurred on by both the treaty and a newfound desire for peace following BoT.
Perhaps Nimbus III was a condition of the Organian Peace Treaty. It most likely was near the intersection of all 3 rivals. Perhaps it wasn't a condition of the treaty but was spurred on by both the treaty and a newfound desire for peace following BoT.
@MAGolding I liked your post and someday I will finish reading it.
I pick 3 and 8, saying Catlin Dar is imprecise is a nice way of saying a dingy. Kord and St. whatever were total losers, why wouldn't she be one as well? I wouldn't take her word for it if it was sunny outside. But that's only my opinion.
I pick 3 and 8, saying Catlin Dar is imprecise is a nice way of saying a dingy. Kord and St. whatever were total losers, why wouldn't she be one as well? I wouldn't take her word for it if it was sunny outside. But that's only my opinion.
I'll go with 3-plus: both Dar's 20 years and Kirk and Khan's 15 years are rough approximations (because they are round numbers and I don't like being told to believe in coincidences), and thus Nimbus III sprung to existence after "BoT", which happened a bit over a year before "Space Seed" as per the stardates.
But Dar's grandiose arrival carries the connotations that the Romulans so far have stayed out of the business. St.John Talbot and Korrd appear to have been rotting away there for a long, long time - Sinjin speaks of the early days as if he'd been there, and extends that with a "we", potentially to Korrd. Nothing extends the knowledge of the former or current situation to the Romulans, though. And it would be a bit presumptuous for Sinjin to assume the newest Romulan envoy is less well briefed on the basics than her many predecessors.
It's quite possible that Nimbus III is a monument to peace treaties in general, with more signatories than just the three currently present (and the two originally present). Any government could send its representative to the Planet of Galactic Peace to watch the colonists toil ah so happily in cooperation. Of course, none do. And out of those no-shows, some could be faceless, like Romulans.
Timo Saloniemi
But Dar's grandiose arrival carries the connotations that the Romulans so far have stayed out of the business. St.John Talbot and Korrd appear to have been rotting away there for a long, long time - Sinjin speaks of the early days as if he'd been there, and extends that with a "we", potentially to Korrd. Nothing extends the knowledge of the former or current situation to the Romulans, though. And it would be a bit presumptuous for Sinjin to assume the newest Romulan envoy is less well briefed on the basics than her many predecessors.
It's quite possible that Nimbus III is a monument to peace treaties in general, with more signatories than just the three currently present (and the two originally present). Any government could send its representative to the Planet of Galactic Peace to watch the colonists toil ah so happily in cooperation. Of course, none do. And out of those no-shows, some could be faceless, like Romulans.
Timo Saloniemi
"CAITHLIN: Twenty years ago, our three governments agreed to develop this planet together. A new age was born."
While there may be wiggle room in the 20 years, there isn't any wiggle room from the dialog that all 3 agreed at the same time to develop the planet together. There really isn't much room for any other governments to be represented, either.
While there may be wiggle room in the 20 years, there isn't any wiggle room from the dialog that all 3 agreed at the same time to develop the planet together. There really isn't much room for any other governments to be represented, either.
...The point being that if we do accept signatories beyond the three Dar addresses in her speech, then absentee signatories exist, and Dar's party could be one of those.
But I don't think there's a timeline problem there. The Romulans jumped from secretive and faceless to active players within TOS already; them trying a scheme involving Nimbus III right off the bat doesn't sound objectionable at all. And there's plenty of time between the 15 and the 20 for this to happen.
Timo Saloniemi
But I don't think there's a timeline problem there. The Romulans jumped from secretive and faceless to active players within TOS already; them trying a scheme involving Nimbus III right off the bat doesn't sound objectionable at all. And there's plenty of time between the 15 and the 20 for this to happen.
Timo Saloniemi
I thought she was more of a naive idealist. She really thought she could do something meaningful with the Nimbus III project.
Kor
Truly one of the wackiest debates there is in TOS fandom.
Which, to nitpick, is clearly a new development in that episode. And thus supposedly something that stems from the Romulans improving on their cloak so that it now makes possible sneak attacks which previously would not have been possible.
After "Balance of Terror", Starfleet thus apparently exhaled in relief. The Romulans had played their ace, and it amounted to nothing much: a fearsome plasma belcher and a trivially outmaneuvered invisibility device, which in combination amounted to less of a threat than if used separately...
Timo Saloniemi
After "Balance of Terror", Starfleet thus apparently exhaled in relief. The Romulans had played their ace, and it amounted to nothing much: a fearsome plasma belcher and a trivially outmaneuvered invisibility device, which in combination amounted to less of a threat than if used separately...
Timo Saloniemi
Funnily enough, that's the exact same solution I used in my old Star Trek chronology!
The rest of your post is indeed long, but sometimes it's useful to include the calculations (and I certainly appreciate it). Perhaps including the nuts and bolts as a quote would avoid the dreaded "wall of text"?
BTW, you appear to have included your 9 points of possible solutions TWICE in your post - was that intentional? As far as I can see they are the same
I put the nine possible solutions at the end of my post, and then after Maurice complained about "the wall of text" I copied them to the beginning of the post so that other people who didn't want to read "the wall of text" could at least see the nine possible solutions to the chronological problem. I have also added something between points 8 and 9.
I'll bet that the remaining outposts and then the new ones that were built after around the Neutral Zone had the technology to track any invisible incursions afterwards!
JB
JB
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