If Star Trek Nemesis had been a box office hit...

[MakeshiftPython]

Whatever ideas we may have heard as being a possible Trek XI probably wouldn't have happened. We all know how some of the original ideas for TNG evolved into something very different by the final product. There probably wouldn't have been a movie with the VOY/DS9 cast included, and if so probably only in cameo, much like how they did it with FC (EMH Doc), INS (Quark, deleted scene), and NEM (Janeway).

We'll probably never know what a hypothetical Trek XI would have ended up as. I am certain though that if it was a TNG installment it may have been the last one. I couldn't imagine them doing another unless the box office returns were big enough to have Paramount give the go. And if the plan was to eventually have Archer's show transition into a film series, was not gonna happen, not after how the first two seasons plummeted in the ratings.

 

[Tenacity]

And if the plan was to eventually have Archer's show transition into a film series ...

No more likely than having DS9 or Voyager become a movie series, meaning not likely at all. Just the star of a show talking it up, which is part of a lead actor's job.

 

[arch101]

Has this become a moot point now that we know we ARE getting a sequel (of sorts) on TV next year?

 

[Vger23]

Has this become a moot point now that we know we ARE getting a sequel (of sorts) on TV next year?

It is as much a moot point now as it was in Dec 2002.

 

[JamesRye]

If Star Trek Nemesis had been a box office hit...
It would still have been rubbish.

 

[Vger23]

If Star Trek Nemesis had been a box office hit...
It would still have been rubbish.

And yet strangely, still far more big-screen worthy and entertaining than Insurrection and Generations.

 

[jaime]

I always joke that I'm one of the 10 people the liked Nemesis. I rated about a middle of the road Trek film overall, my 2nd favorite of TNG films. I liked the basic plot, the characters (I actually thought the 'additional' cast like Geordi and Troi had more to do in this film then the prior 3), the special effects and the music (of course). I also really liked the Scimitar--when Picard said she was a predator he hit it on the head. The outside of the ship looked mean (the inside was iffy--it probably could have been better).

But the writing had issues even though I liked the basis of it. Surprising in a way because John Logan is no slouch. I'm a big 007 fan and I thought Skyfall and Spectre were great Bond films that he helped write. I didn't like the B-4 subplot and the scenes on Kolarus seemed like a waste of time. I liked the basic plot and the idea they were trying to get out there about the 'echo' and all that--would Picard do exactly what Schinzon in his situation being he was a clone. That's the kind of deep thinking you come to expect from Star Trek. But they didn't execute it all that well. Hardy as Schinzon I didn't mind but I understand some of the criticisms. Part of that I think is he was playing a clone of Picard, so I think he was compared to Stewart's acting, perhaps a tall order for a then young actor. But setting that aside he was ok in the role.

It's easy to dump on because it was the only Star Trek film not to premiere at number 1 on its opening weekend. But I really think Paramount did it a huge disservice releasing it when they did along with a number of blockbuster films. Nemesis was not a blockbuster film, but I do feel a few months earlier or later and it probably would have done a little better and at least pulled number 1 the first weekend.

But I recognize I'm in the minority. A lot of Trekkies feel it is an abomination and some don't even speak of it. I've said before I was always surprised at the amount of vitriol it gets though. I noted on another thread I wonder how much of that is a group think idea (to be clear I'm not saying criticisms of it aren't valid--it just seems like one of those things that it's popular to dump on).

Even Insurrection doesn't seem to get that kind of hatred that Nemesis does, and I feel Insurrection is one of the weaker Star Trek films, number 12 or 13 IMHO (TFF is in last place). I don't hate any Star Trek film and Insurrection was ok, but I thought Nemesis was superior to Insurrection.

The one thing I thought was clever was the Arthurian subplot. But they didn’t do enough with it, and it only really come through for scant seconds. But by killing Data and not Picard, and by not explaining a bit more about Shinzons genesis it falls apart. It’s most obvious when Shinzon pulls himself up the pole at the end. Pure Mordred/Arthur imagery. If they had run more with the Enterprise/Camelot and done something with it, it would have made the film stronger. Sela being Shinzons mother would even have helped it in that regard.

 

[Damian]

The one thing I thought was clever was the Arthurian subplot. But they didn’t do enough with it, and it only really come through for scant seconds. But by killing Data and not Picard, and by not explaining a bit more about Shinzons genesis it falls apart. It’s most obvious when Shinzon pulls himself up the pole at the end. Pure Mordred/Arthur imagery. If they had run more with the Enterprise/Camelot and done something with it, it would have made the film stronger. Sela being Shinzons mother would even have helped it in that regard.

Yeah, the potential was there. They had the ingredients for a great movie but they just didn't develop those plot points enough and they wasted precious movie time on the whole Kolarus/B-4 subplot.

That's why while I do enjoy the film as much as I would any Star Trek production, it wasn't a great Star Trek film. I sort of consider it middle of the road. Better than TFF or Insurrection, but not as good as TWOK or First Contact.

 

[JamesRye]

For me, I think the problem with the TNG movies is that Next-Gen was best suited to TV. When they embraced the movie format with First Contact, they had to drastically alter the character of Picard. This peace loving explorer became an action-hero, it's almost impossible to reconcile the character of Picard in "I,Borg" with the Picard seen in First Contact. But it works really well to have him that way in a movie. And it's the only TNG film that works on all levels. Generations suffered from a lack of budget and some plot holes, but was OKish I guess. The other two were just stink bombs.

Insurrection came along and I can see what the creators were thinking - we need a change, but action had worked in First Contact, so lets try to make something like The Voyage Home, but sprinkle in some action. As it turned out, the humour was too broad and the story left some people thinking "you know what? These people aren't native to this planet - why shouldn't the magic of the metaphasic rings be shared amongst the people of the Federation?" Its almost the complete opposite message that Picard presents in Journeys End when he's trying to rid the planet of pesky racial stereotpes.

Then there's Nemesis. At it's heart, this is a very small-scale film about nature vs nurture, it could have been a great TV episode with two very good actors (think Chain of Command). But this is a Mooovie, with a huge budget and so the action was overdone in the film, with whole sequences that literally make you question the moviemakers sanity. Picard drives a dune buggy now? Imagine if the TV series had done something as tonally inconsistent as that! Then there's B4, what the actual f***. Why does none of the cast mention Lore? They act as if they can’t believe that they’ve discovered another Soong android! This is even more ignorant because in the episode ‘Inheritance’, we discover that Data’s ‘mother’ is also an android.

The film’s main protagonists are the Remans, ‘brothers’ of the Romulans. Why had we not heard about this warrior race in the (at this point) previous 36 years of Star Trek storytelling? It beggars belief that these Nosferatu wannabes were included. Why does Commander Riker lead the security team to fight the Reman invaders on the Enterprise? For that matter, why does he have a fist fight with a Reman on a catwalk over a bottomless pit? Where did that come from?

The whole film then reaches a climax when the Enterprise, being shadowed by Shinzon’s cloaked ship and desperate to rendezvous with the fleet for protection accidentally enters an area of space/plot contrivance where long-range communications don’t work!

Here are some more problems:
Why is Patrick Stewart so bad in this film?
B4's presence just cheapens Data's sacrifice
Where isthe logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from whatever random planet he was on.
How the heck did the villian know they'd find Data's brother?
The Romulan military randomly decides they'd like to be ruled by their former slaves, the Remans and a human clone.

Nemesis really is a disaster.

 

[Damian]

B4's presence just cheapens Data's sacrifice
Where isthe logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from whatever random planet he was on.
How the heck did the villian know they'd find Data's brother?
The Romulan military randomly decides they'd like to be ruled by their former slaves, the Remans and a human clone.

Some of that I could probably answer. Schinzon wanted B-4 found so he made sure he was left on a planet on the Enterprise's course. It was no secret the Enterprise was going to Betazed for Riker-Troi's wedding and he made sure it was a planet near the path they would take and close to Romulan space. I'm sure he knew their curiosity would require them to investigate the positronic signal they found. Now while I can explain that away, I still don't care for the whole Kolarus-B4 subplot. I think it was a waste of valuable screen time that could have been used elsewhere. The only seen I sort of liked was when the arm grabbed Worf's leg and Data says something obvious (I forget the exact line but something like it appears to be an android arm) and Worf looks at him drily and says "How astute". The reason I like that moment is because his look in that scene was how I felt about that whole sequence of events. Like seriously.

And why did they follow Schinzon. Well, why does anyone follow a megalomaniac like that? History is replete with similar situations. He promised them glory and a final victory over the hated Federation, and with the Scimitar he proved he had the goods to deliver. We may have been allies during the Dominion War, but that didn't make them like us anymore. And don't forget he didn't convince the existing government. He got a few key people on his side like Tal'Aura and Donatra and murdered the standing government. That was actually one plot point that made perfect sense for me because it's happened before throughout history.

 

[XCV330]

Well, why does anyone follow a megalomaniac like that? History is replete with similar situations.

yeah.. about that..

 

[JamesRye]

The difference here is that the Romulans aren't even following a member of their own species. It'd be like having a non American president.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Nemesis was the first ever Star Trek film that i ever found myself being conscious of how slow time seemed to be passing while watching it in the cinema. lol