Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

[Nightowl1701]

I have no idea why Lynch would put in that rain scene. It's like he paid no attention to anything mentioned about sandworms - water kills them. So making it rain would have killed every sandworm in the vicinity of Arrakeen.

If I remember right, either producer Dino de Laurentiis, Universal CEO Sid Sheinberg or both forced that ending on Lynch. Lynch's original scripted ending was consistent with the novel; however, they wanted a more triumphant note to end the film on than 'Paul becomes Emperor, has a loveless marriage with Irulan, ignites a universe-wide jihad that kills tens of billions of innocent people'.

"C'mon, this is Hollywood!! This guy's supposed to be a Messiah, right? Let's see a miracle!"

Spoiler: Lynch's original ending went something like this...

PAUL: We Fremen have a saying: "God created Arrakis to test the faithful." (staring hard at the Reverend Mother) One cannot go against the word of God.
REVEREND MOTHER: (in horror) You speak of Holy War... You bring the Jihad!!
PAUL: Yes. The human race feels the need for the cleansing turmoil - a holy war that will rage across the universe. Genes will mingle, and strong new mixtures will survive. I did not want this. I have long resisted it. But you, like spoiled children, insisted on it. And it. Will. Be.
(The Fedaykin begin beating their drums again)
REVEREND MOTHER: You cannot unleash these people on the Universe!!!
PAUL: (torturing her with the Voice) You will yearn for the gentle ways of the Sardukar. I have already seen the destruction you have sent falling down around your heads. I accept this treachery. I accept my place in it, though I am not the cause. Now, I lead you on the burning path to the new world!
ALIA: And how can this be? For he IS the Kwizatz Haderach!!
(We zoom in through Paul's blue eyes to see a roaring ocean. As we watch, a gigantic wind rises up - and the ocean turns blood red. ROLL CREDITS.)

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Post BH/KJA's meddling:

JESSICA: Now then, Paul, be nice to your Granny.

Really, I think that particular revision of history was one of their lamest and laziest changes.

 

[wayoung]

Post BH/KJA's meddling:

JESSICA: Now then, Paul, be nice to your Granny.

Really, I think that particular revision of history was one of their lamest and laziest changes.

No. Paul running away and joining the space circus is always the worst.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No. Paul running away and joining the space circus is always the worst.

How would that being the worst disqualify the other from being "one of their lamest and laziest changes"? [ed - Corrected phrasing. Apologies.]

That's a rhetorical question, because it wouldn't.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Glad I bailed before Space Circus.

 

[Timewalker]

If I remember right, either producer Dino de Laurentiis, Universal CEO Sid Sheinberg or both forced that ending on Lynch. Lynch's original scripted ending was consistent with the novel; however, they wanted a more triumphant note to end the film on than 'Paul becomes Emperor, has a loveless marriage with Irulan, ignites a universe-wide jihad that kills tens of billions of innocent people'.

"C'mon, this is Hollywood!! This guy's supposed to be a Messiah, right? Let's see a miracle!"

Spoiler: Lynch's original ending went something like this...

PAUL: We Fremen have a saying: "God created Arrakis to test the faithful." (staring hard at the Reverend Mother) One cannot go against the word of God.
REVEREND MOTHER: (in horror) You speak of Holy War... You bring the Jihad!!
PAUL: Yes. The human race feels the need for the cleansing turmoil - a holy war that will rage across the universe. Genes will mingle, and strong new mixtures will survive. I did not want this. I have long resisted it. But you, like spoiled children, insisted on it. And it. Will. Be.
(The Fedaykin begin beating their drums again)
REVEREND MOTHER: You cannot unleash these people on the Universe!!!
PAUL: (torturing her with the Voice) You will yearn for the gentle ways of the Sardukar. I have already seen the destruction you have sent falling down around your heads. I accept this treachery. I accept my place in it, though I am not the cause. Now, I lead you on the burning path to the new world!
ALIA: And how can this be? For he IS the Kwizatz Haderach!!
(We zoom in through Paul's blue eyes to see a roaring ocean. As we watch, a gigantic wind rises up - and the ocean turns blood red. ROLL CREDITS.)

Wow, that is different! And clearly intended as a setup to get the audience to want to see how it plays out (since the original intention was to make movies of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, as well).

But of course Hollywood needs a happy ending. That's why a lot of adaptations of novels are changed. Back in 1990, they changed the ending of The Handmaid's Tale from the ambiguous ending of the novel (we don't know what happens to the main character) to the happy ending of yay, the bad guy is killed and she escapes!

Post BH/KJA's meddling:

JESSICA: Now then, Paul, be nice to your Granny.

Really, I think that particular revision of history was one of their lamest and laziest changes.

Actually, they did follow the Dune Encyclopedia on that point (unless they independently decided to make this even more of a small-universe-soap opera).

The article for ATREIDES, JESSICA states:

Herself the product of an eugenic exercise, the one-night mating of a Bene Gesserit (almost certainly Gaius Helen Mohiam) with the Siridar-Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, Jessica grew up on Wallach IX, the Bene Gesserit home planet...

The entry for MOHIAM, REVEREND MOTHER GAIUS HELEN states:

A very young-looking Helen using the name Tanidia Nerus, had been sent to the Harkonnens as a concubine. Her assignment was to seduce Vladimir and produce a daughter (who, with the Atreides line would produce the mother of a Kwisatz Haderach). Obviously, the relationship proved displeasing to both parties, and though Helen did become impregnated, Jessica was her only child. As to the effect on Harkonnen, Gaius Helen seemed sure that she was his one and only femle partner. She denied his later sexual preferences had anything to do with the one night she had spent with him.

So... KJA/BH can't be accused of making all of it up, just the nonsense that Harkonnen raped her and she gave him a disfiguring disease in revenge. And that bit about her killing her first child because of some premonition (and therefore having to go back to him to get pregnant again) is definitely KJA/BH throwing in revolting, violent stuff that was never part of either Frank Herbert's take on the characters, or even Dr. McNelly's.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Wow, that is different! And clearly intended as a setup to get the audience to want to see how it plays out (since the original intention was to make movies of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, as well).

But of course Hollywood needs a happy ending. That's why a lot of adaptations of novels are changed. Back in 1990, they changed the ending of The Handmaid's Tale from the ambiguous ending of the novel (we don't know what happens to the main character) to the happy ending of yay, the bad guy is killed and she escapes!


Actually, they did follow the Dune Encyclopedia on that point (unless they independently decided to make this even more of a small-universe-soap opera).

The article for ATREIDES, JESSICA states:



The entry for MOHIAM, REVEREND MOTHER GAIUS HELEN states:

So... KJA/BH can't be accused of making all of it up, just the nonsense that Harkonnen raped her and she gave him a disfiguring disease in revenge. And that bit about her killing her first child because of some premonition (and therefore having to go back to him to get pregnant again) is definitely KJA/BH throwing in revolting, violent stuff that was never part of either Frank Herbert's take on the characters, or even Dr. McNelly's.

Ah well, I've never owned nor read the DE so I stand corrected. However, the embelishments you mention they added were certainly a step too far. No-one with "other memory" in the line from Jessica onward mentions the fact of HGM being mated with VH in the original series of novels. Perhaps Frank Herbert preferred to leave it implicit. However, in retrospect, it would have shown the single-mindedness of the Bene Gesserit by demonstrating that the grandmother was willing to potentially kill her own grandson with a Gom Jabbar to protect the larger mission.

 

[wayoung]

Glad I bailed before Space Circus.

As I was about to reply to this I went back to an old forum I posted in to look up my Paul of Dune posts. Turns out I wasn't even thinking of Paul of Dune, the circus happened in Winds of Dune! I wrote that the circus was the worst thing in the series but that Paul of Dune was still more insultingly bad. I don't even remember what Paul of Dune was about, since I confused it with Winds of Dune, but apparently I really hated it.

 

[wayoung]

Aha, here's why I hated Paul of Dune:

Well, I finished this last week. It was hard to get through, what with it both being ass and angering me at it's self-apologizing.

There's not much I can say about it that others haven't already.

I try to be open minded. I try to judge things like this book in multiple ways. The first, and most important, is does it stand on it's own merits? The second, does it stand with the creators other works, and the third, does it stand with the previous books in the series?

The problem is, this book is as much a personal manifesto defending the authors previous works against Frank Herbert's originals that it is almost impossible to judge it strictly on it's own merits. There is an entire chapter whose sole purpose is to state that all of the original novels were written purposely wrong by an in-universe character and that anyone who liked them more than the new "true" novels is a gullible, fanatical moron. Who reads the "original novels" in this book? The uneducated, violent, stupid (again, only in this novel) Fremen fanatics. All the intelligent characters look down upon it as intentionally distorted propaganda. This continues throughout the entire novel! In fact, the strongest plot in the entire novel is this storyline! The others, about the war of assassins and the assassination attempt, are simple, weak, window coverings trying to disguise the fact that this book is a 500 pages of the authors saying saying "If you like the original 6 books more than ours, you're a moron".

There are almost as many incidents of the story referencing itself (especially in the Emperor sections) as there are new developments. The plots are weak, the characters are internally consistant only with the characters as previously written by Brian and Kevin. They are nothing like the characters as presented by Frank Herbert. The storylines are only consistant with those previously written by Brian and Kevin. They are nothing like the characters as presented by Frank Herbert. The characters abilities are not consistant with either Brian and Kevins previous iterations of them or Franks presentations. Since when did Paul's prescience become a rare, random, and difficult to interpret "vision from god"? This is the man who had such a perfect, clear vision, that even when blind he could fly a bloody ornithopter!

Gah.

Before reading this novel I had, coincidentally, finished Dune and Dune Messiah. I'm now reading Children of Dune. The differences in style, character, dialogue, and QUALITY are so great that... I don't even know how to express it. I think you have to experience it by doing what I did - reading Dune, Dune Messiah, and Paul of Dune one after the other. But then you'd have to read Paul of Dune.

Ignoring all of Franks books, this is still the weakest novel in Brian and Kevins series. Mostly for reasons already mentioned. Too self-referential and the main plots are simply window-dressing for the authors personal rant against non-fans and defense of their novels.

The original house trilogy and the Butlerian Jihad, while nothing near the quality of the original novels, were at least entertaining, star-warsyish reads. I can't say the same for any of the three novels since.

I read these books out of morbid curiosity. If Winds of Dune is anything like this, I think it may just kill that curiosity.

Anyway, rant over. Hey, look, mine took less than 500 pages

 

[Timewalker]

Ah well, I've never owned nor read the DE so I stand corrected. However, the embelishments you mention they added were certainly a step too far. No-one with "other memory" in the Atreides line from Jessica onward mentions the fact of HGM being mated with VH in the original series of novels. Perhaps Frank Herbert preferred to leave it implicit. However, it would have shown in restrospect the single-mindedness of the Bene Gesserit by showing that the grandmother would potentially kill her own grandson with a Gom Jabbar in defence of the larger mission.

Oh, I'm not criticizing anyone who hasn't read the DE articles (sorry if I gave that impression). I know it's hard to find nowadays, and very expensive when people do locate a copy. So I'm just sharing excerpts from it that might help the conversation along, so we can see where the Dune Encyclopedia supports or doesn't support the novels.

I actually didn't have a problem with the idea that Mohiam would use a false identity with the Harkonnens anyway. She wasn't just any ordinary Bene Gesserit breeder; she was a high-ranking one, and so it made sense not to hand the Harkonnens any more information than they had to, in case of subsequent attempts at blackmail or extortion, even revenge if it suited them. So it would have been prudent to give Mohiam a false identity. And we see early on that she doesn't have any capacity for sentimentality, when she berates Jessica for having a son instead of a daughter, just because it pleased Duke Leto to have a son. And at some point in their training, all Bene Gesserit candidates go through the gom jabbar test; Jessica had to, and Irulan would have passed it as well. No doubt Mohiam would have killed them if they had given in to their fear.

But admittedly this does smack of a soapish element, aka "small-universe syndrome" where everyone is already connected to through family or other social ties.


This whole conversation has reawakened my interest in Dune, and I've realized that I have 5 Dune-related books in my collection that I haven't read yet:

Mentats of Dune
Navigators of Dune
(both KJA/BH books, so that's probably why I haven't felt compelled to read them any time soon)

The Science of Dune (reviews were mixed on this as it includes nuDune material; I'd put it on the back burner of my "to read" list and forgotten about it until the recent revival of this thread)

Dune and Philosophy: Weirding Way of the Mentat (contains essays dealing with various philosophical aspects of Dune, from novels to the Lynch movie)

The Maker of Dune: Insights of a Master of Science Fiction (collection of essays by Frank Herbert, edited by Tim O'Reilly)... I'm going to have to read this. I took a skim of the table of contents, and the essays cover a range of topics from autobiographical material, writing science fiction, life on other planets, Dune, ecology, religion, politics, philosophy, and more. It's really a shame I'd forgotten I own this, as it looks really interesting.

As I was about to reply to this I went back to an old forum I posted in to look up my Paul of Dune posts. Turns out I wasn't even thinking of Paul of Dune, the circus happened in Winds of Dune! I wrote that the circus was the worst thing in the series but that Paul of Dune was still more insultingly bad. I don't even remember what Paul of Dune was about, since I confused it with Winds of Dune, but apparently I really hated it.

I'd somehow had the impression it was in Paul of Dune, too. But they're basically two halves of the same book, since they purport to cover the 12 years between Dune and the end of Dune Messiah, while blatantly contradicting part of Dune Messiah itself. And since KJA/BH are all about the $$$$$$$, they had to shamelessly pad both books with "backstory" about the War of Assassins, Leto's supposed intended marriage to another woman, and Paul and Rhombur sneaking off to join the circus.

Aha, here's why I hated Paul of Dune:

Well stated.

 

[lurok]

Looking at this in-universe chronology I've just realised I haven't read anything pre-Paul Of Dune. Are the short stories any good?

"Hunting Harkonnens" 2002
The Butlerian Jihad 2002
"Whipping Mek" 2003
The Machine Crusade 2003
"The Faces of a Martyr" 2004
The Battle of Corrin 2004
Sisterhood of Dune 2012
Mentats of Dune 2014
"Red Plague" 2016
Navigators of Dune 2016
House Atreides 1999
House Harkonnen 2000
House Corrino 2001

Paul of Dune (Parts II, IV, VI) 2008
"Wedding Silk" 2011
The Winds of Dune (Part II) 2009
Dune 1965
"Whisper of Caladan Seas" 2001
"The Waters of Kanly" 2017
Paul of Dune (Parts I, III, V, VII) 2008
The Winds of Dune (Part IV) 2009
"The Road to Dune" 1985
Dune Messiah 1969
The Winds of Dune (Parts I, III, V) 2009
Children of Dune 1976
God Emperor of Dune 1981
Heretics of Dune 1984
Chapterhouse: Dune 1985
"Sea Child" 2006
"Treasure in the Sand" 2006
Hunters of Dune 2006
Sandworms of Dune 200

 

[Timewalker]

The short stories vary in quality. Some weren't bad, but there was one of them that was bad like the rain at the end of the Lynch movie was bad.

The only short Dune fiction on that list I would definitely recommend is "The Road to Dune" in Eye. The artwork included in that is incredible. There are portraits of various Dune characters, sketches of various scenes around Paul's Keep, and one of them really makes an impression of just how immensely huge it was.

I would also recommend National Lampoon's DOON. It's a spoof of Dune (much shorter!), told in the style of Dune, and I find it genuinely funny.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Not trying to give a review of the book, mind, but I've begun reading Dune: House Atreides and it's "OK," so far, except that right out of the gate, I've noticed this tendency to repeat things several times on the same page. For example, "Through bribes and careful manipulation of the records, the Baron planned to control what the Emperor knew." "The Baron had no plans on telling the Emperor everything." "The Emperor would be kept from knowing everything, the Baron would see to it." Yes ... YES!!! ... yes, to the Baron not telling the Emperor everything. I GET that, alright? What ... are these two collaborating on this thing getting paid by the word, here, or what? Because I got it the first time, there's no need to type the shite every other paragraph. If I'm not sure about something, the words aren't moving off the page ... you know? I can recheck anything important, if I had to. It's just a very annoying tendency I'm noticing, here. Otherwise, I'm only, like ... 40 pages into it, so ...

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Not trying to give a review of the book, mind, but I've begun reading Dune: House Atreides and it's "OK," so far, except that right out of the gate, I've noticed this tendency to repeat things several times on the same page. For example, "Through bribes and careful manipulation of the records, the Baron planned to control what the Emperor knew." "The Baron had no plans on telling the Emperor everything." "The Emperor would be kept from knowing everything, the Baron would see to it." Yes ... YES!!! ... yes, to the Baron not telling the Emperor everything. I GET that, alright? What ... are these two collaborating on this thing getting paid by the word, here, or what? Because I got it the first time, there's no need to type the shite every other paragraph. If I'm not sure about something, the words aren't moving off the page ... you know? I can recheck anything important, if I had to. It's just a very annoying tendency I'm noticing, here. Otherwise, I'm only, like ... 40 pages into it, so ...

Pad the tome out with redundant crap - I assume that's KJA's writing style. Do we know that BH's name isn't there only for the association with his father?

 

[wayoung]

Pad the tome out with redundant crap - I assume that's KJA's writing style - do we know that BH's name isn't only there for the association with his father?

It's a common assumption.

 

[lurok]

Nice piece: The only good online fandom left is Dune
https://theoutline.com/post/5333/dune-revival-2018-david-lynch?zd=1&zi=bvtrkzn2

 

[JD]

Did any of you guys/girls who hate nuDune like KJA's Star Wars books? I really enjoyed the Jedi Academy trilogy.
What is Dune's relationship to modern day Earth? So far the only references to Earth I've come across are in the wiki's article on the KJA/BH Butlerian Jihad.

 

[wayoung]

Did any of you guys/girls who hate nuDune like KJA's Star Wars books? I really enjoyed the Jedi Academy trilogy.

I read a couple of his books in franchises outside of Dune, didn't enjoy them.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

What is Dune's relationship to modern day Earth? So far the only references to Earth I've come across are in the wiki's article on the KJA/BH Butlerian Jihad.

In the original version of the Dune universe, mankind has been colonising many thousands of other worlds for tens of thousands of years. Earth doesn't appear to hold any particular interest for most people and is almost mythical to many (probably due to society effectively being feudal with dissemination of knowledge seemingly restricted to the elite). In nuDune, Earth is rendered uninhabitable by atomic bombardment during the Butlerian Jihad.

 

[Reverend]

Did any of you guys/girls who hate nuDune like KJA's Star Wars books? I really enjoyed the Jedi Academy trilogy.

Yes and no. When I first read the Academy books I did enjoy them, but back then I was a kid with fairly simple tastes (i.e: anything Star Wars = Great!) But I tried re-reading them some years back and they were just awful. Filled with a lot of the same flat characterisations, gratuitous ghoulishness and plot holes you could fly a Death Star through. 'Darksaber' on the other hand, I never liked. Indeed, that was about where I started to loose interest in the EU. At least so far as the post RotJ material was concerned.

The only thing KJA related I retain even a little affection for is the TotJ comics, but I'm not sure just how much influence he had on those books.

What is Dune's relationship to modern day Earth? So far the only references to Earth I've come across are in the wiki's article on the KJA/BH Butlerian Jihad.

It's mentioned in passing several times in the original novels. The closest comparison I can think of is the role of Earth in Asimov's Foundation books (which seemed to have inspired Herbert in at least a few elements.) That is to say that people think of Earth in 'Dune' the way modern people might think of the ancient city of Babylon. As in it's a place that existed, was very important once, but it's gone now and not terrible relevant to anyone but historians.