Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

[DigificWriter]

^ Having such a strong reaction is exemplary of part of what I was talking about when I said I thought some Dune fans were taking things way too seriously.

If the nuDune stuff isn't to your liking, so be it, but I think it's an overreaction to behave as if your opinion of their quality is somehow an affront to the OG!Dune stuff and Frank Herbert's legacy.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

^ Having such a strong reaction is exemplary of part of what I was talking about when I said I thought some Dune fans were taking things way too seriously.

If the nuDune stuff isn't to your liking, so be it, but I think it's an overreaction to behave as if your opinion of their quality is somehow an affront to the OG!Dune stuff and Frank Herbert's legacy.

I wonder why you're concerned that some fans of FH's original novels hate the trashy way the series was continued. It's not like we're going to change our opinions to sooth your disquiet. Best to ignore our ineffectual bleating altogether.

 

[wayoung]

I would have liked to see the plot outline of the Butlerian Jihad novel FH had made with McNelly, although it's not supposed to be much different the DE write up.

 

[Reverend]

I would have liked to see the plot outline of the Butlerian Jihad novel FH had made with McNelly, although it's not supposed to be much different the DE write up.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the broad strokes are more or less the same, but Frank Herbert's best work is always in the details and the nuance of the execution.

I mean if one were to summarise the basic plot of Dune, it wouldn't sound all that different from most "hero's journey" type fantasy stories. But they *way* he told the story is what sets Dune apart. For one thing, he turned the stereotypical "white person becomes a hero to primitive locals and is crowned king" on it's head by framing it with the notion that super heroic messianic figures have a catastrophic effect on civilisation. I'd fully expect him to take a similarly unexpected tack with the Butlerian novel.
Like say, what if the person supposedly leading the fight had absolutely no control over her followers, leading them to destroy useful knowledge in their fanatical religious fervour. What if the reason for the Jihad in the first place wasn't so righteous and was more about the Corrinos usurping control of the machine masters for their own gain and less about freeing those under their yolk. What if the Harkonnens were slandered with cowardice because they were the only sane voice in the madness?

Also, I doubt the machines would have been so cartoonishly maniacal and...well, dumb.
That's assuming they would have any personality at all. Personally, I never got the impression that the Butlerian Jihad was meant to be against a Skynet type machine slaver. I think the line in the original novel stated that trusting too much in machines allowed those humans that controlled the thinking machines to enslave others. I don't recall anything about them loosing said control over the machines.

 

[wayoung]

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the broad strokes are more or less the same, but Frank Herbert's best work is always in the details and the nuance of the execution.

I mean if one were to summarise the basic plot of Dune, it wouldn't sound all that different from most "hero's journey" type fantasy stories. But they *way* he told the story is what sets Dune apart. For one thing, he turned the stereotypical "white person becomes a hero to primitive locals and is crowned king" on it's head by framing it with the notion that super heroic messianic figures have a catastrophic effect on civilisation. I'd fully expect him to take a similarly unexpected tack with the Butlerian novel.

Also, I doubt the machines would have been so cartoonishly maniacal and...well, dumb.
That's assuming they would have any personality at all. Personally, I never got the impression that the Butlerian Jihad was meant to be against a Skynet type machine slaver. I think the line in the original novel stated that trusting too much in machines allowed those humans that controlled the thinking machines to enslave others. I don't recall anything about them loosing said control over the machines.

It's not the same as the BH/KJA books at all. Then they'd have had to pay McNelly. McNelly confirmed it before he passed, the book he had planned with Herbert (and had completed the outline and first two chapters of before FH got sick) has nothing to do with the eventual published books. The Herbert Partnership shut him out and refused to speak to him in order to avoid any potential financial claim he might have on the books.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

For one thing, he turned the stereotypical "white person becomes a hero to primitive locals and is crowned king" on it's head by framing it with the notion that super heroic messianic figures have a catastrophic effect on civilisation.

A second way in which Frank Herbert turned that trope on its head was introducing the Missionaria Protectiva as a plot device which metacontextually allowed Paul and Jessica to cynically exploit the trope itself to realize it, actions which had the direct effect of casting them as antiheroes.

 

[JD]

The House books began the job of contradicting and deconstructing the real Dune, and replacing it with the nuDune bullshit. This continued with the Legends trilogy, and continued even more blatantly with the Paul and Jessica books (Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune). I'm looking at my copy of Paul of Dune and seeing those obnoxious words "The Direct Sequel to DUNE" on the front cover, like Dune Messiah never existed.

Inside they make their purpose quite clear, in one of Irulan's exerpts:

So... first shot fired. The book is meant to "correct" things that were "wrong" in Dune. As in Frank Herbert's novel that was the source for everything that came after.

Shot #2:
So there it is. The events of Dune relegated to Irulan writing it as "propaganda" or "inspirational religious text" and she "got some of the details wrong." Later on Irulan reminds Paul that he told her the story, she wrote it, and Shaddam IV and the Bene Gesseret are livid that Irulan's book portrayed Paul as heroic.

Later on, one of the architects of Paul's Keep in Arrakeen mentions Duncan Idaho to some of the Fremen and they say they know all about him because they read Princess Irulan's book:
The overall attitude is summed up when Irulan and Paul discuss these "discrepancies" in his life story, after Bludd has spoken to her:
Of course history is written by the victors, but given what was going on at the time on the various Dune sites and social media and Frank Herbert's fans pointing out all the mistakes and pointless contradictions, this was basically a "fuck you" to the original Dune novel and the original Dune novel's fans. I've seen nuDune fans totally swallow this and accept that Dune's validity as the source material is superseded by what KJA/BH wrote. And later on in the novel, we see that Irulan has begun Volume 2 of The Life of Muad'Dib and she includes all the stuff that people were bitching that she hadn't included in Volume 1.

It couldn't be plainer: Irulan essentially wrote Dune, and was compelled later to "correct" that in a following volume. NuDune "corrects" Dune, like everything that was actually written by Frank Herbert has no validity.


And there is no way in hell that Hunters/Sandworms is what Frank Herbert intended. Those are sequels to KJA/BH's books, not Chapterhouse. The rich, complex characters Frank Herbert created become cartoonish caricatures of themselves, weak-minded and superficial. They use characters from the Butlerian Jihad books, plotlines from them, and basically tie things up with the most ridiculous mess of deus ex machina and "oops, we need to wrap this up... okay, Norma comes back and saves everybody from Omnius and everybody else lives happily ever after, let's go count our royalties, ka-CHING!"

A movie based on the Butlerian Jihad that was presented in the books would have been a mindless action movie with a beautiful damsel needing to be rescued, a "love triangle", and lots of explosions and space battles and robots that would be spun off into tie-in merchandise (which I'm afraid this movie might become if KJA/BH have any say at all in the script). It would please action movie fans, but it wouldn't please me any more than nuTrek pleases me (I loathe those movies).


It makes sense when you realize that the new books actually contain dialogue and text explicitly stating that the events of Dune - as written by Frank Herbert - are nothing more than in-series propaganda and not the "real" story. No, my FH books didn't vanish in a puff of smoke, but more people are being convinced that the nuDune books are the real story and Frank Herbert's books - the original six novels - are the non-canon, discontinuous stuff they can't be bothered to read because it's "too hard" or "makes them think too much."


Exactly.

And I'm going to take a moment to criticize some of Frank Herbert's fans: There are a couple of forums where some of them have stated "The Anderson/Herbert books are shit, they're garbage, I know so because _____ told me, and I'll never read any of them!"

My response: We'll be taken more seriously if we actually know wtf we're talking about when we criticize the nuDune books. That's one of the reasons I've continued to read them, long after accepting that they probably would never get any better. If I'm going to criticize a series of books, I'd best know why I'm criticizing it. So please note that I'm not telling anyone not to read the nuDune books. I am telling folks here why they don't measure up to Frank Herbert's original novels.

Oh, and to everyone bringing up the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the movies associated with them: I haven't read more than a few pages of The Hobbit (didn't care for it) and have never seen the movies. I won't know what you're talking about.


Apparently Brian had ongoing issues with Frank over a number of decades. He's simultaneously belittling his father's legacy while also shamelessly using it for profit, while pretending that this is what FH wanted all along.

As far as I'm concerned, if there ever were any notes, they should publish them. Literary scholars would love to study them and discuss them - the history of science fiction is a legitimate academic field, and there are lots of fans who would love to read them as well.

They've stopped doing new novels now, so there's really no reason not to publish the notes. Unless, of course, they never existed, or they did exist but not as extensively as claimed (the story kept changing over the years), or they exist, but were totally ignored. I'm leaning toward some combination of this, and all of KJA's protestations of "why would anybody be interested in them" is just so much deflection.

The only Dune-related thing Brian Herbert wrote that I did like was the biography he wrote about his father (Dreamer of Dune). It's an interesting read.


As a reminder, you previously said:

You're being given serious answers to your question, which can be summed up as "Yes, you need to read Frank Herbert's novels first." Otherwise the rest of it won't make much sense, at least if you want more than just the cartoon version.


Some here might think I'm obsessed... but it's a case of "you had to have been there" as to why some of this bothers me so much. There were fan discussions between the two camps that turned from discussions into feuds, and there were actually a couple of people who went after KJA on social media to the extent of not only being utterly vicious to him, but also to his wife and family. That's crossing a line - disliking and criticizing the books is okay. Slagging the authors' wives and extended families is not okay.


I don't think he would be pleased at the disgusting mess they wrote that purports to be "Dune 7". FFS, I saw a fanfic version of "Dune 7" that was more in keeping with what FH would have written than the drivel we actually got.


You're the one who asked if you should read FH's books first. Apparently it matters enough to you to have asked.

Wow, I can see where it would be aggravating to see that kind of an attitude coming from someone taking over a franchise following the originator's death, it definitely feels a bit disrespectful. It would be one thing if this was a Lucas kind if situation where the creator changed his mind, or a remake/reboot where they were specifically going in to present a new take on the story, but it does seem like an odd way to approach something that meant to be a continuation/expansion of the original. It sounds like BH & KJA were more interested in their own ideas than actually continuing/expanding FH's work.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Wow, I can see where it would be aggravating to see that kind of an attitude coming from someone taking over a franchise following the originator's death, it definitely feels a bit disrespectful. It would be one thing if this was a Lucas kind if situation where the creator changed his mind, or a remake/reboot where they were specifically going in to present a new take on the story, but it does seem like an odd way to approach something that meant to be a continuation/expansion of the original. It sounds like BH & KJA were more interested in their own ideas than actually continuing/expanding FH's work.

They seemed to be most interested in the moolah they could make - but that's only my biased impression.

Their version of the machine crusade was laughable. It wouldn't surprise me if FH's version would have been completely different with it depicting humans throwing off their dependency on machines that had rendered society stagnant and degenerate, dooming our species to extinction. The machines never controlled humanity as in BH/KJA's version - instead the machines removed all impetus for man/woman to better him/herself.

Once the machines were gone, schools arose that emphasised excellence in developing human potential - mentats, Bene Gesserit and so on.

 

[DrCorby]

Wow, I can see where it would be aggravating to see that kind of an attitude coming from someone taking over a franchise following the originator's death, it definitely feels a bit disrespectful. It would be one thing if this was a Lucas kind if situation where the creator changed his mind, or a remake/reboot where they were specifically going in to present a new take on the story, but it does seem like an odd way to approach something that meant to be a continuation/expansion of the original. It sounds like BH & KJA were more interested in their own ideas than actually continuing/expanding FH's work.

It happens all the time in comics, especially with runs considered "classics". A new set of creators comes in, fiddles with the characters, starts revealing that the story you thought you knew is all wrong -- Here's what REALLY happened. There was a hidden level going on under the surface events originally recounted, hidden agendas, new characters you've never heard of before that were the real movers-and-shakers. Then a new storyline starts, building on the revised, "retconned", chronology. In the hands of a skilled storyteller, this sort of narrative can occasionally work well; usually, however, it's midgets standing on the shoulders of giants, demanding to be acknowledged as equals. And this usually results in a mess that lots of people buy because they loved the original so much, but ultimately doesn't hold up and fades from memory as other, lesser, poor derivatives should do.

I slogged through House Atreides, because I wanted to love it as much as I did the original books, to be captured again by the scope of Herbert's imagination. But it felt unsatisfying somehow. I ascribed my feelings to not remembering details of the original works well, since I hadn't read them in quite a while. I decided to return to the new works after I re-read at least the original quartet. 20 years later, it still hasn't happened. And based on the info in this thread, the desire has dropped to an even lower level...

 

[JD]

So how is the Dune Encyclopedia regarded by original Dune fans?
I just read through Encyclopedia and NuDune's versions of the Butlerian Jihad, and the one from the Encyclopedia sounded much closer to what I imagine from the references in the first book.

It happens all the time in comics, especially with runs considered "classics". A new set of creators comes in, fiddles with the characters, starts revealing that the story you thought you knew is all wrong -- Here's what REALLY happened. There was a hidden level going on under the surface events originally recounted, hidden agendas, new characters you've never heard of before that were the real movers-and-shakers. Then a new storyline starts, building on the revised, "retconned", chronology. In the hands of a skilled storyteller, this sort of narrative can occasionally work well; usually, however, it's midgets standing on the shoulders of giants, demanding to be acknowledged as equals. And this usually results in a mess that lots of people buy because they loved the original so much, but ultimately doesn't hold up and fades from memory as other, lesser, poor derivatives should do.

I don't know if I'd really consider that the same thing since superhero comics aren't really as closely connected to one creator as something like Dune, and they're constantly being tweaked and updated. I think even some of the original creators of characters like Batman and The Hulk changed things themselves. I was under the impression that Dune was more consistent than something like that, before Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson came into the picture.

 

[fireproof78]

It makes sense when you realize that the new books actually contain dialogue and text explicitly stating that the events of Dune - as written by Frank Herbert - are nothing more than in-series propaganda and not the "real" story. No, my FH books didn't vanish in a puff of smoke, but more people are being convinced that the nuDune books are the real story and Frank Herbert's books - the original six novels - are the non-canon, discontinuous stuff they can't be bothered to read because it's "too hard" or "makes them think too much."

It still doesn't make much sense to me, since people are allowed to make up their own minds regarding reading material and what they regard canon and not. I simply demonstrate my opinion via money, namely that I have never paid for a BH/KJA Dune novel and don't plan on it. I plan on buying several copies of the original Dune to give away.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The BH/KJA is middling SF at best. Fun but disposable entertainment.

 

[fireproof78]

The BH/KJA is middling SF at best. Fun but disposable entertainment.

Yup. Completely unnecessary to my enjoyment of Dune.

 

[DrCorby]

I don't know if I'd really consider that the same thing since superhero comics aren't really as closely connected to one creator as something like Dune, and they're constantly being tweaked and updated. I think even some of the original creators of characters like Batman and The Hulk changed things themselves. I was under the impression that Dune was more consistent than something like that, before Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson came into the picture.

No, it's not an exact analogy, but there are some strong similarities. Think Watchmen...

 

[wayoung]

So how is the Dune Encyclopedia regarded by original Dune fans?
I just read through Encyclopedia and NuDune's versions of the Butlerian Jihad, and the one from the Encyclopedia sounded much closer to what I imagine from the references in the first book.

I don't know if I'd really consider that the same thing since superhero comics aren't really as closely connected to one creator as something like Dune, and they're constantly being tweaked and updated. I think even some of the original creators of characters like Batman and The Hulk changed things themselves. I was under the impression that Dune was more consistent than something like that, before Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson came into the picture.

The DE version of the Butlerian Jihad (I did initialize that, but then realized that it could be misinterpreted....) is what McNelly and FH were going to base the Butlerian book (single novel) on. That's not to say there would not be any differences - the DE is an in-universe book so all "mistakes" are errors on the part of in universe historians, their sources, and Leto II's propoganda. Thus, they could deviate from the DE whenever they wantes and not have to worry about violating canon.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The BH/KJA is middling SF at best. Fun but disposable entertainment.

I'd describe their works as mediocre at best and frequently meddling unnecessarily with what went before, muddying people's perception and recollection of FH's work, and maddening to people like me who should probably find more serious things to gripe about. Disposable - eminently yes, fun - nah, can't see that unless you derive pleasure from spending your hard-earned income on such trash to bitch and moan about it on message boards. Um, er - is therapy available?

 

[Set Harth]

and have never seen the movies.

You should see them, they're great!

The second trilogy, less so, but it still has its moments.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd describe their works as mediocre at best and frequently meddling unnecessarily with what went before, muddying people's perception and recollection of FH's work, and maddening to people like me who should probably find more serious things to gripe about. Disposable - eminently yes, fun - nah, can't see that unless you derive pleasure from spending your hard-earned income on such trash to bitch and moan about it on message boards. Um, er - is therapy available?

Check with your insurance company

 

[The Wormhole]

The machines never controlled humanity as in BH/KJA's version

I don't know. The "Alan Smithee" cut of the Lynch film does show visual depictions of humanity's enslavement to the Thinking Machines and the Butlerian Jihad, so the idea that machines did control humanity did exist before Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's novels were on the scene.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I don't know. The "Alan Smithee" cut of the Lynch film does show visual depictions of humanity's enslavement to the Thinking Machines and the Butlerian Jihad, so the idea that machines did control humanity did exist before Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's novels were on the scene.

What was FH's contribution to a version of the movie that was disowned by the director? I suspect none. In any case, blindly following machines as the best arbiters of socital rules in a cyberethical society need not imply literal enslavement of humanity as ridiculously depicted by BA/KJA. I don't regard the Smithee cut as serious evidence.

The Lynch movie does contain FH-sanctioned changes that I dislike such as BG "telepathy" and weirding modules. This probably shows that FH accepted such deviations for the sake of adaptation to a different medium as the lowest common denominator of what might be understandable and acceptable to a wider audience - a mistake in my opinion but it was his choice. His novels aren't holy writ and the movie stood or failed on its own merit - mostly failed as it turned out. In some respects perhaps it might have been better for him to have refused to write any sequels to Dune. I got the impression he became increasingly sick of the prospect of having to churn them out to earn a crust. The quality declined steadily over the series so perhaps the BH/KJA novels are merely natural extensions of this trend. I have no real affection for any of the sequel novels - only the original. The same goes for his Destination: Void series - too many trips to the qanat in both series.