If only Starfleet Chief of Staff was logical in TFF?

[Galileo7]

Starfleet Chief of Staff: "Now, I know the Enterprise isn't exactly up to specs..."

Kirk: "With all due respect, the Enterprise is a disaster! There must be other ships in the quadrant."

Starfleet Chief of Staff: "Other ships, yes. But no experienced commanders. Captain... I need Jim Kirk."

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[Timo]

Your orders are to tackle this no-win scenario, and this time please have the good sense to lose, Jim. You do realize this is punishment detail? And for heaven's sake, don't try to do anything heroic with that piece of crap you are flying in order to earn an undying reputation at, well, death. We aren't airing the news anyway no matter what.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lance]

I don't think the crew should've been put on another ship, but change the ridiculous idea (in the script) of crippling Enterprise at all. Retain the idea of shore leave, but just have the ship fully functional and ready to depart after the crew are recalled to duty. As it is, the plot never does anything with the idea anyway: the Enterprise being "a disaster" is to all extents and purposes forgotten by the time the ship reaches Nimbus, looking to all the world like a throwaway gag that was only there because it amused the script writer. Aside from making it so the transporters can't beam the hostages up from Nimbus, and so they can't rescue Kirk later on Godworld, it has zero relevance to the story anyway, and if that was the only reason to do it then there are a million better ways to make the transporter non-functional than to make the hero ship a piece of junk!

 

[Timo]

Then again, making the whole ship a disaster zone is

a) a valid way among others to shut down the transporters,
b) a valid way to explain why the heroes don't immediately fix them,
c) a valid way to explain why the Klingons win all the space battles and are a threat like no Klingon from any previous episode or movie (except, that is, the other one where the hero ship was also a disaster zone), and
d) a fun plot element on its own, with implications about Kirk's current status and all.

It's just that c and d sort of cancel out each other. Why repeat TSfS here?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Khan 2.0]

"your orders are to come up with an entirely new story and hire ILM'

 

[inflatabledalek]

I'd have used the otherwise baffling decision to set it right after IV to the story's advantage.

Because it's set out to be a light comedy, Voyage Home kind of downplays how bleak the end is for the Federation. A lot of people must die on Earth (anyone out for a sail for a start), and Star Fleet must lose a lot of crews.

So take advantage of the fact that the A, even if a new ship, would have been nearly finished when the probe went past and have her technical glitches being the after effects of that. With all of the other ships nearby in the same or worse condition. With a manpower and ship shortage, the stuff that's still working is spread out along the neutral zone and hard to redeploy, leaving the Enterprise, however glitchy, the best spare ship for what seems a fairly low key assignment.

You wouldn't even have to drown the scene in exposition to convey the idea, one line from Scotty about the cause of the tech problems and the Admiral cutting Kirk's objection down with a "Our recent problems mean the Enterprise is the best ship regardless".

 

[DonIago]

The ship having a skeleton crew and not being fully functional also helps explain the ridiculous ease Sybok had commandeering it.

Any reasonably competent security team would have stunned or otherwise incapacitated everyone in the shuttlebay and sorted them out afterward.

Say what you will about "Rascals" and "Power Play", at least both episodes handle things reasonably well with regards to 'if you're in imminent danger of losing command of the ship, the first thing you do is lock out command functions'.

 

[Dukhat]

Starfleet Chief of Staff: "Now, I know the Enterprise isn't exactly up to specs..."

Kirk: "With all due respect, the Enterprise is a disaster! There must be other ships in the quadrant."

Starfleet Chief of Staff: "Other ships, yes. But no experienced commanders. Captain... I need Jim Kirk."

And yet the Excelsior was right there in Spacedock right alongside the Enterprise. You mean to tell me that it was in worse shape than the Enterprise, and had even less of a skeleton crew than the Enterprise did, Admiral Bob?

And no experienced commanders? What about Styles? He's not experienced? They gave him command of the Excelsior, for Pete's sake. You'd think he had some sort of experience.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

[Timo]

The ship having a skeleton crew and not being fully functional also helps explain the ridiculous ease Sybok had commandeering it. Any reasonably competent security team would have stunned or otherwise incapacitated everyone in the shuttlebay and sorted them out afterward.

True enough. But this would not have resulted in a significantly different movie. After all, Sybok was in control not because he had a superior fighting force, but because he could co-opt any hero save Kirk.

In an alternate scenario, Kirk would "rescue" the Ambassadors, who would then help Sybok gain control of the ship victim by victim. Or Sybok would convert the heroes before boarding the Enterprise. It was really a win-win situation for him, as Nimbus III apparently was sufficiently far out in the sticks that he could deal with one starship at a time at the very worst. Lots of opponents in there -> lots of converts to help him out. Relatively few opponents -> easier time convertin'.

Even with the transporters working, Sybok would have succeeded. But then we would not have gotten the Fan Dance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I can't agree with this. Sybok's powers seem to have been telepathy-based, and it's reasonable to assume (especially since they happened to have had Sybok's half-brother available for inside information, and who also happens to be a telepath), that there are security protocols for dealing with such individuals. Hell, just keep Sybok sedated until he can be off-loaded.

Granted, skeleton crew or no skeleton crew, you're back to "Starfleet security is frequently incompetent".

 

[inflatabledalek]

What tickles me about the mutiny is, no matter how small the crew is (and how skeleton can a skeleton crew be on a ship with 70 odd decks?), Sybok still converts most of them over the tannoy rather than via the full mental mojo thing. Either his telepathic powers are far reaching and amazing, or everyone really hates Kirk.

 

[DonIago]

It's been a comfortably long time since I last saw the film (even when I was going through the various series with friends new to Trek I refused to show them this), but I don't think I ever interpreted that scene as Sybok doing his mojo in that manner. That's just making him far too powerful for my comfort levels.

 

[Nyotarules]

Another movie that shows that the Head of Starfleet is run by idiots and they all happen to be human males......

 

[2takesfrakes]

A major flaw of TFF is that for the movie to work, the Enterprise has to be compromised to where Sybok and his band of lowlifes can (easily) take it over, for the sake of our Suspension of Disbelief to be held intact. And ... rather conveniently, I might add ... the script finds the "A" in dire straights. If we were made to commit to THIS story Shatner & his cronies have hatched for us, I mean ... if a starship HAD to be hijacked to do The Deed ... then they might've tried this alternative:

The Enterprise "A" is established as being refitted and whatnot in spacedock. The bridge crew might've then been put in a position where they, personally, were on their way to the Klingon Home World to return the Bird of Prey they stole (and was now rusted, fished from the bottom of the San Francisco Bay), but have now been diverted to this emergency, being the nearest vessel and whatnot.

Now, nothing about the story itself has to change, outside of the mode of transport they're using, which just so happens to make Sybok's goal attainable. The only problem would be when the Klingon vessel rises over the ridge with guns a'pointed at Kirk, and Spock at the helm, it's more than a little confusing which BoP we're looking at. Unless something's been done to the Klingon's ship, or they're using another kind of vessel, OR ... the "so ... it's ME you want you Klingon bastards!" bit would have to go. Which would not be too much of a sacrifice, for this movie.

 

[Lance]

^ I like that idea. Yes it means another movie without Enterprise (and after TVH made such a great show of unveiling her) but logically it'd probably be easier to buy into the crew returning the Klingon ship, or else bootstrapping her into service when it became clear Enterprise is a disaster area.

 

[2takesfrakes]

All Shatner's really interested in is having this naughty Vulcan kidnap Kirk so he can meet God and kick his arse. Especially if he got to do it alone, with everybody, including Spock & Bones, out of the way, choosing Sybok's charisma over their personal loyalty to their commanding officer and a good friend. However Kirk got there was really very secondary, as the story and The Shat's direction reveal ...

 

[Mojochi]

Frankly, if you must hamper the ENT-A's functionality (Which seems necessary for the story) Then instead of the lame "No experienced commanders" excuse, you could just say the whale probe somehow damaged all their vessels in the vicinity, as it passed through to Earth, & that because the A wasn't in service or finished yet, it had no such difficulty. That probe did after all paralyze everything it came near, & that phenomenon's extent is largely unknown.

It would also help explain away why the new Enterprise was so hastily patched together. Besides wanting to reward Kirk & crew, they needed to get a ship out there on duty, while everybody else was scrambling to get fully operational again, after the events of the last film

 

[Phoenix219]

Frankly, if you must hamper the ENT-A's functionality (Which seems necessary for the story) Then instead of the lame "No experienced commanders" excuse, you could just say the whale probe somehow damaged all their vessels in the vicinity, as it passed through to Earth, & that because the A wasn't in service or finished yet, it had no such difficulty. That probe did after all paralyze everything it came near, & that phenomenon's extent is largely unknown.

It would also help explain away why the new Enterprise was so hastily patched together. Besides wanting to reward Kirk & crew, they needed to get a ship out there on duty, while everybody else was scrambling to get fully operational again, after the events of the last film

Considering the serialized nature of the movies, that would have been a much better connecting tissue then the throwaway "Lets see whats she's got the Captain said..." line. Play off the whale probe as an EMP-style event that all ships in the area were affected by. The new "A", being either older then the rest or brand newer then the rest, and not fully "on line" yet, was protected from the burst.

Just have to explain why everything looked so functional in spacedock at the end of IV....

 

[Mojochi]

Considering the serialized nature of the movies, that would have been a much better connecting tissue then the throwaway "Lets see whats she's got the Captain said..." line. Play off the whale probe as an EMP-style event that all ships in the area were affected by. The new "A", being either older then the rest or brand newer then the rest, and not fully "on line" yet, was protected from the burst.

Just have to explain why everything looked so functional in spacedock at the end of IV....

Well, everything was functional for the ENT-A. They even go to warp at the end, but we can assume that ship actually is functional (Even though as TFF later asserts, it's poorly designed or assembled) because it was not yet online until it is tossed together for Kirk & crew. It's the other ships that are suffering damage. It is a bit of a stretch, given that we see shuttles, & the space station are operational at the end of TVH. Gillian even mentions that she's on her way to a science vessel

TVH certainly gives the impression that everything is back to normal, but the TFF we already have asserts that the ENT-A is less operational than we were led to believe. There's no reason we can't also claim that things weren't so normal as they appeared in general. All the ships out there on their own would be handling repairs on their own, where as things back at Earth would have much more ability to get back to being at least operational appearing. We also don't know how long passes between the probe leaving & Kirk's courtmartial.

In TVH, we see the Excelsior is docked, & there's no other ships in the vicinity to contradict the claim that the fleet is in disrepair, & most importantly, the amount of change to the actual script would be negligible. It would've taken not much longer to explain than the existing communique they already had.

 

[Timo]

Dramatically, it holds together well enough IMHO.

Nobody really wants the mission to succeed. We spend some plot time establishing that the Grand Special Envoys are worthless drunkards involved in a failed project that all the parties involved wished never happened in the first place, and that two out of the three cultures involved are indeed sending nothing in their way (but one fails to stop a rogue from going in anyway in the hopes of taking potshots at everybody else). It would be inconceivable for Starfleet to send in the Excelsior and a brigade of Marines.

And Sybok obviously knows this much: he can presumably read the papers just as well as anybody else, and understands basic interstellar politics, so he can trust on Starfleet sending a token ship anyway, but nothing more, even if also nothing less.

That Sybok does fine in fairly complex circumstances suggests he would have done well in any circumstances. How could he fail? He has already been disgraced and banished, and he's still going strong. Arresting would not add much to the obstacles he's facing. So it's only logical that he doesn't fail.

So what about Starfleet and its failure here? Nobody cares about Sybok or Paradise City or Nimbus III or the Ambassadors. Losing the Enterprise might be bad press, though. But when Kirk signals for help, nobody is surprised that "Starfleet" says help is on the way - even though the ship has been hijacked and flying in a surprising direction. Not much was supposedly at risk there.

Timo Saloniemi