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Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

Is it?

  • Yes, that's the official word and it still fits

    Votes: 194 44.7%
  • Yes, but it's borderline at this point

    Votes: 44 10.1%
  • No, there's just too many inconsistencies

    Votes: 147 33.9%
  • I don't care about continuity, just the show's quality

    Votes: 49 11.3%

  • Total voters
    434
I will give DSC that it has filled itself with an Alice in Wonderland subtext. But it’s barely sub. Beyond that, which is only occasionally something tried in the Trek films ( Moby Dick, Heart of Darkness, L’Morte D’Arthure ... FC, Ins, Nem.) DSC is not more sophisticated, and for any given narrative theme present, it’s usually easy to identify a previous Trek doing a similar and usually better job. I am pro DSC, but let’s not get carried away.

I have to agree with this. We've had some pretty sophisticated Star Trek stories in the past. "Journey to Babel" would fill an entire season, with how much they packed into a single episode, if it were done today. The Wrath of Khan gives me new insights all the time. I think "The Undiscovered Country" would've been the better sub-title to give TWOK.

Skipping ahead: DS9's "In the Hands of the Prophets" tackles the still touchy subject of religion versus science in schools. And the Circle Trilogy, consisting of the first three episodes of DS9's second season show's a living, breathing Bajor and Starfleet's complicated relationship with it.

These examples are just for starters.

As much as I like DSC, I'm not ready to put it, wholesale, above those.
 
I think Disco tells a more sophisticated story than any other Trek series ever did.
No. I like Discovery and all but the several examples that have already been mentioned, as like as the layered nuances of TWOK (as much as I loathe that film), as well as the themes running through Kirk's arc in Kelvin Trek, Balance of Terror, as well as Deep Space 9. I'm hard pressed to say any other when there is so much material out there.
 
No. I like Discovery and all but the several examples that have already been mentioned, as like as the layered nuances of TWOK (as much as I loathe that film), as well as the themes running through Kirk's arc in Kelvin Trek, Balance of Terror, as well as Deep Space 9. I'm hard pressed to say any other when there is so much material out there.

I’d throw in Chains of Command or Frame of Mind for much better ‘torture’ episodes, rather than the literal and metaphorical blunt weapons in DSC. They fumbled the Ash Tyler ball, and Trek has had imposter stories before (Second Skin, Seskas arc in voyager...which throws in relationships with leads too.) which all explored the material in fairly sophisticated ways. DSC has yet to break any truly new ground...credit for presenting the Stamets and Culber relationship as just ‘part of the scenery’ because that’s brave these days and absolutely the right way to do it. But Re-Joined actually dealt with a ‘taboo’ while making it clear that the same sex relationship wasn’t the taboo in question.
If DSC reaches the bar set by other Treks, it will be grand. But they aren’t there yet. They may grow into it...season one Frakes would t have managed Frame of Mind, and season one Stewart couldn’t have managed chains of command. It is never going to top some of DS9, though it’s possible to equal it.
 
At this point I'm going to go with "It is until it isn't". I watch it on the understanding it's Prime but visually it looks far too different to The Original Series. I wouldn't die if they suddenly announced it's not Prime and it's its own continuity. Likewise I won't die if it stays Prime. Enterprise still exists so it wouldn't be the first time the Prime Universe has looked out of whack with TOS.
 
The entire first season is an examination of identity diffusion and foreclosure set against (or perhaps in response to) the classic nature v. nurture dilemma. And if you want to get really meta about it, one could argue that, if the Kelvin films are anything they are strictly a classic nature v. nurture dilemma. But there are also elements of body integrity identity disorder. Both of which are struggles Fuller - and other prominent members of the staff - probably battled in their lives.

In terms of allegory The Bible (or rather Dante and Milton's interpretations of the Bible) factor much more prominently than Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. But I think the story is meant to reflect religion as a whole, as Micheal plays a prominent role across all three "major" religions. It should also be noted that all three have always depicted Micheal as a white male, but Fuller specifically cast a black female, which directly relates to the themes listed above.

I think a good simple example from Paradise Lost's Wiki page is

After Adam and Eve disobey God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge, God sends the angel Michael to visit them in the garden. Before he escorts them out of Paradise, Michael shows them visions of the future...
Insert Stamets and Tilly for Adam and Eve as needed.

There are similar examples relating to Micheal's story in Inferno to the MU arc, but I can't be bothered to look them up. But suffice it to say Micheal slays Satan, who if I remember correctly (It's been since Junior High.) had been presenting a false face to him. In modern storytelling contrivance, they just used a red herring: That is the arc angel Gabrial, Micheal's trusted ally.

It could be argued that identity foreclosure is the leading cause of the prescribed social dysfunction - or Peter Pan syndrome - that's become prevalent in the younger generations. People are starting to realize at a much younger age that the old social pigeon holes are total bullshit. Yet they can't reconcile this newfound revelation because of societal pressures to function and survive, Micheal's journey is an exploration of this. She's a human who thinks she's a Vulcan trying to fit in with Starfleet and endlessly struggles until she thrust into a world that is both a figurative and literal reflection of all that she thought was true and realizes the only thing she needs to be is herself. Voq-ler experiences a similar journey, albeit a much more literal - and infernal - one. (And here again, I should point out they deliberately made him an albino Klingon.)

There is a more cynical take here as well: that is the whole journey is meant as a reproach against pray the gay away.

As another note, Leviticus is littered with references to hooven grazing animals or cattle as being the barometer (Can ganglia also predict the weather?) of what is "clean" and "pure." Leviticus has, of course, more recently become infamous for its other proclamations of cleanliness and purity.

I think all this religious allegory is important considering that religion represents the largest conceived purveyor that is given charge to those social archetypes. They invoke a prominent religious figure, send her through storylines echoing her counterpart all to ultimately assert all of the "lessons" those old tales are meant to teach are wrong -- or at least should be taken as absolute.

And, as one more point of note I'll mention that Alice similar experiences an identity crisis that she ultimately remedies through the manipulation of numbers (or playing cards) like any good Vulcan might. Yet Carroll, despite being an advocate for reasoning and logic and mathematics was, at the end of the day, a man of the cloth.
 
And, as one more point of note I'll mention that Alice similar experiences an identity crisis that she ultimately remedies through the manipulation of numbers (or playing cards) like any good Vulcan might. Yet Carroll, despite being an advocate for reasoning and logic and mathematics was, at the end of the day, a man of the cloth.

A very well written post. Though I simply don't see it. Maybe it becomes clearer in the final three episodes? Maybe I'm not that smart?

I'll only hit on one point for now: Isn't a possibility that Burnham's identity crisis is simply a replay of Spock's? That they've really done nothing more than replay the same familiar notes?
 
I'll only hit on one point for now: Isn't a possibility that Burnham's identity crisis is simply a replay of Spock's? That they've really done nothing more than replay the same familiar notes?
Sure. But I'd argue that's the whole point.

Identity diffusion has always been an issue - and certainly was in the 60s - but it has never been the political football that it is now. And making that direct connection draws attention to it without needing to waste any time on the setup.
 
I'll only hit on one point for now: Isn't a possibility that Burnham's identity crisis is simply a replay of Spock's? That they've really done nothing more than replay the same familiar notes?
Certainly, to a degree, but those points need to be retold for a new audience. Even more so, I think that Michael's personal journey involves a lot more trauma that is more relatable to current audiences.
:) Sometimes people just don't like something.
The thing is, TWOK is espoused as the greatest. It is taking one's (online life) in one's hands to go against the grain in fandom ;)
 
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