Kathleen Kennedy Damaging Star Wars....?

[Trekkin]

Yeah the first and last actions are harassment. Writing that someone ruined a film series isn't, especially when its while they're planning to make another sequel and especially when before that post you claimed that bashing a film for even just a few months (before it's even on home video?) was harassment.

Calling for somone to be sacked ‘for a few months’ isn’t harassment?

So if I spammed this board alone with demands that you get fired for doing ‘a bad job,’ you’d be cool with it and not find it unacceptable at all? Keeping in mind that, like a lot of Kennedy’s detractors, I have no substantive proof for my claims or a single clue what your job entails.

And you’d be a-ok if I tried to stir up others to help me, and you had no option to just walk away from your account?

I mean, it’s not like it will actually affect your job. You’d be fine. Certainly wouldn’t hit that ‘report button’ ASAP.

There's also a lot of unrelenting slamming of Roddenberry for making money for his unused, unserious theme song lyrics and inserting and then selling prop medals (yeah, pretty excessively greedy especially given how much he preached against greed but not really making him a terrible person) and having the gall to put his name above the original writer's name on scripts after he rewrote them (IMO pretty ).

Everyone criticises a man for repeatedly harming other people. These critical views having typically been formed and held completely seperate from their intense feelings of devotion to the art he produced.

This justifies cyber stalking Disney employees for making a movie I didn’t like.

...

Did you really think this line of argument would ring any truer if I heard it for a fifth time?

 

[Spot261]

In 2005, both with and after the release of RotS, he seemed quite proud of the prequels and the choices he had made in them, that he had been true to and conveyed his vision, while also saying that he wouldn't make more SW, the story had been told and so the series was over.

He was proud of the films, but if you can't see the shift in his tone from interview to interview, especially around the time of the "raped my childhood" hysteria, to then selling the franchise for nowhere near what it was worth before disappearing off the public radar for years having stated quite explicitly, "all you get for making a new SW is criticism" having had his home trespassed on and months of threats and abuse online I'm not sure how to help you.

I suppose Kelly Marie Tran was just happy she had told her own story on Twitter and closed her account to signal the end credits?

 

[suarezguy]

He was proud of the films, but if you can't see the shift in his tone from interview to interview, especially around the time of the "raped my childhood" hysteria, to then selling the franchise for nowhere near what it was worth before disappearing off the public radar for years having stated quite explicitly, "all you get for making a new SW is criticism"

I haven't seen much of his newer interviews but if there was a tone shift that's odd when it seems to me the public perception of the films has improved quite a bit over time relative to when they were being released rather than remained as bad or gotten worse. That comment does seem pretty petty when there was also a lot of praise and with any film you will get both.

having had his home trespassed on and months of threats and abuse online I'm not sure how to help you.

I don't defend all fans, I said earlier personal abuse shouldn't be considered acceptable.

I suppose Kelly Marie Tran was just happy she had told her own story on Twitter and closed her account to signal the end credits?

Too many of the comments against her were personally abusive, yes she didn't agree to that and it's a shame people have done so.

 

[fireproof78]

I haven't seen much of his newer interviews but if there was a tone shift that's odd when it seems to me the public perception of the films has improved quite a bit over time relative to when they were being released rather than remained as bad or gotten worse. That comment does seem pretty petty when there was also a lot of praise and with any film you will get both.

The man received threats, and constant commentary on how he had "raped" people's childhoods from several different circles. Public perception may have shifted (largely because there are new targets, in my opinion) but the level of hatred slung at Lucas since 1999 was high. Not sure how a shift in public perception removes that sting.

 

[Uncle_Lou]

The bulk of the online hate campaigns, targeted harassment, & fake 'reviews' are just that -- a (loosely) organized smear effort. Take the Black Panther film as example, same situation. Sure, not the finest superhero film ever made, but giving it a review of 1-2 stars out of 10 with a straight face? Really? Overflowing sewer drains like breitbart and '4 chan' send out their squads of brainwashed drones and Russiabots to pollute the entire scene with outlandishly low reviews, familiar keywords ('snowflake', 'SJW', etc.), and hateful memes in tow.
It all boils down to abject racism and misogyny at the end of the day. Intellectual brown folks & strong women don't fit comfortably in the (twisted) narrative of white supremacists & 'nationalists'. As per usual, they lash out at what they envy and fear. Nerdvirgin basement-dwelling types.

 

[suarezguy]

Calling for somone to be sacked ‘for a few months’ isn’t harassment?

I'm not providing a service or entertainment content to you, let alone getting paid for it. If I was you would be well within your rights to say if I was doing a bad job and you think someone else could do better. He's not and most creators aren't part of online fan discussions, they know that there would be criticism and they prefer not to seriously read it (especially since you can't please everybody and boards may not be representative anyway).

So if I spammed this board alone with demands that you get fired for doing ‘a bad job,’ you’d be cool with it and not find it unacceptable at all?

I think we have different understandings of what is going on. I don't think all bashing is spam, let alone the only thing dissatisfied fans post.

And you’d be a-ok if I tried to stir up others to help me, and you had no option to just walk away from your account?

Not sure what you mean by stirring up others, if that includes posting something negative about the work then yes I would expect that would be part of a discussion board and I would have to "Tolerate [your] opinion" (TPM deleted scene).

 

[mos6507]

Calling for somone to be sacked ‘for a few months’ isn’t harassment?

There's a larger issue here, which is the degree to which people are starting to treat existing IP as sacred ground. It's called intellectual "property", as it were. So you are getting turf-battles that feel sort of like sectarianism.

I think this is a byproduct of the consolidation of active IPs. As we have fewer and fewer IPs, fans are feeling they have less and less unique things to be fans of, so they start fighting over how what's left is expressed. It's like a game of musical chairs.

I never would have predicted that as the barriers to entry in filmmaking dropped that we'd actually see fewer active IPs rather than more, but that's how it's gone.

It's like in Demolition Man where everything is Taco Bell.

 

[Refuge]

The man received threats, and constant commentary on how he had "raped" people's childhoods from several different circles. Public perception may have shifted (largely because there are new targets, in my opinion) but the level of hatred slung at Lucas since 1999 was high. Not sure how a shift in public perception removes that sting.

It seems to be a pattern that has found even a greater voice through social media but has existed for a while. Lucas/Kennedy, Roddenberry/Braga they all cop a dose of the good, the bad and the ugly.

 

[fireproof78]

It seems to be a pattern that has found even a greater voice through social media but has existed for a while. Lucas/Kennedy, Roddenberry/Braga they all cop a dose of the good, the bad and the ugly.

The difference, in my opinion, for Lucas is that he was the sole face of Lucasfilm for the longest time. So, he ended up catching the brunt of the abuse, while Roddenberry had Gene Coon, Harve Bennett, and eventually Berman who also takes a lot of flak.

 

[Trekkin]

He's not

He is. The only excuse you’d have for thinking otherwise, is if you somehow missed every other post hes made on the subject. Which I know you haven’t.

Which is also why this ‘but what about reasonable criticism’ is getting about as much traction as somone walking into a discussion on addressing the domestic violence rate, and saying ‘why won’t you talk about all the couples that aren’t abusive? You’re not being fair.’

I don't think all bashing is spam, let alone the only thing dissatisfied fans post.

See, this is why I’m having a hard time taking you at face value.

Because nothing in that sentence correlates with anything I said. Which stands out all the more, because you quoted the part you’re supposably responding to. It comes across as a straw manning.

Not sure what you mean by stirring up others, if that includes posting something negative about the work then yes I would expect that would be part of a discussion board and I would have to "Tolerate [your] opinion" (TPM deleted scene).

1. Anakin had already corrected Greedo and ‘expressed’ his dissatisfaction via a fist to a green face by the time Qui-Gon said that

‘Just walk away Anakin...after you’ve done absolutely everything else.’

2. Just think. If somone had ever bothered to try and nip Greedo’s flaws (paranoia, ignorance, and willingness to get violent in when the previous two traits are challenged) in the bud whilst he was still a child...

Then he might not have ended up a particularly stupid career criminal, who died unmourned from a cheap shot in his gut, and had his corpse left in a seedy bar

3. One of the opinions that Qui-Gon is shown to be willing to just walk away from because you ‘can’t change it’ is slavery.

4. Motherfucker literally mind controls people.​

Star Wars doesn’t even like that approach!

 

[suarezguy]

He is. The only excuse you’d have for thinking otherwise, is if you somehow missed every other post hes made on the subject. Which I know you haven’t.

I was referring to Lucas not being part of an online discussions, certainly not as a member of a board. From the interviews I read from him from while he was making the prequels he was aware of a lot of the fan complaints and (understandably) pretty dismissive of them, thinking that you can't please everyone, that a lot of fan preferences were pretty extreme and that he does and has to make the films for himself.

See, this is why I’m having a hard time taking you at face value.

Because nothing in that sentence correlates with anything I said. Which stands out all the more, because you quoted the part you’re supposably responding to. It comes across as a straw manning.

You said someone griping that Lucas "ruined Star Wars" once a month for too long (a decade but earlier you suggested even months) was harassment of him and when I said I didn't think it was harassment you then equated it with another scenario, spamming a board with nothing but demands for someone to be fired. So I responded that I think griping and bashing the films and the creator's work isn't that scenario, it can be, though negative, also substantive rather than spam.

Edit: You earlier said that writing too negatively about a film for months so that others didn't want to watch the next one crossed the line from criticism to harassment.

If somone had ever bothered to try and nip Greedo’s flaws (paranoia, ignorance, and willingness to get violent in when the previous two traits are challenged) in the bud whilst he was still a child...

Then he might not have ended up a particularly stupid career criminal, who died unmourned from a cheap shot in his gut, and had his corpse left in a seedy bar​

Motherfucker literally mind controls people.

Hmm, fair points that yes Greedo was meant to be more in the wrong in the scene and that the Jedi don't always follow their teachings.

 

[Trekkin]

You earlier said that writing too negatively about a film for months so that others didn't want to watch the next one crossed the line from criticism to harassment.

(1) No. I said it was abuse, and not a critique. Because after a certain point, it becomes obvious that the entire issue is now all about the obsession and anger on behalf of the sender. Not any attempt to improve the person receiving the message.

Because the target has typically already received said theoretical message. Fifty times.

(2) For the last time: it’s not about ‘bashing the movie.’ It’s about making things personal with the actual people involved.

For eg. If I was positively commenting after Rian Johnson’s tweets with same passion and consistencies as his ‘haters’, it would still be creepy harassment. Especially if he’d made it obvious that he’d kinda prefer you not fill his feed with yourself, kthanx.

Or if I was making once-a-month threads about Kathy Kennedy totally getting a promotion, taking over the entirety of Disney, and here’s fifty videos trying to convince everyone I’m right...then I’ve probably crossed into obsessive stalker behaviour. And need to step back a bit from the total stranger.

I was referring to Lucas not being part of an online discussions, certainly not as a member of a board. From the interviews I read from him from while he was making the prequels he was aware of a lot of the fan complaints and (understandably) pretty dismissive of them, thinking that you can't please everyone, that a lot of fan preferences were pretty extreme and that he does and has to make the films for himself.

Yet he made later comments that outright said the exact opposite.

It’s almost like a constant and direct barrage of negativity will typically wear one down over time. Especially when it’s from people being persistently bitter over something you cannot change, didn’t really cause any harm, yet they refuse to move on from.

 

[suarezguy]

I think we have been misunderstanding each other. I was talking about criticizing a film on film discussion forums while you seem to be talking about criticizing it on the creator's own social media feed, which I agree after a point of being too repetitive and negative becomes very non-productive and too personal & detrimental to the filmmaker/star so should be avoided.

 

[Spot261]

I was talking about criticizing a film on film discussion forums while you seem to be talking about criticizing it on the creator's own social media feed, which I agree after a point of being too repetitive and negative becomes very non-productive and too personal & detrimental to the filmmaker/star so should be avoided.

Still not quite there I'm afraid, it doesn't matter what the platform is, it's the content being placed on said platform. This hasn't been valid film criticisms, it's been inadequate, hateful, spiteful people venting their anger in personal ways regardless of their chosen means for doing so.

If that isn't evident check out any one of dozens of youtube videos on the matter and try to reconcile the content with the idea of legitimate criticism and not simple bigotry. These people aren't making constructive criticism, they aren't treating the film as they would any other and offering informed opinions, they are simply using free webspace as an outlet for their own personal prejudices and wasted anger which has nothing to do with Star Wars.

It seems to be a pattern that has found even a greater voice through social media but has existed for a while. Lucas/Kennedy, Roddenberry/Braga they all cop a dose of the good, the bad and the ugly.

Clearly not.

As you already know perfectly well. I'd love to understand what drives you to do this.

 

[Campe]

You want to know who’s ultimately damaging Star Wars? It’s the toxic fan base. I mean, we all know this, but a Twitter exchange between them and Christopher McQuarrie (Mission: Impossible - Rogue Nation) really brought this home:

Dark Horizons reports, after a discussion started by the toxics of “SJW nonsense which should be banned from all fiction”:

McQuarrie then tweeted to Johnson: “My friend, After five minutes of this, I don’t know why you’re still on Twitter. I would have loved to make a Star Wars film someday. I’m cured.” Someone then asked McQuarrie if there is any superhero film he would be interested in making, to which he said: “Nah, after tonight I think I’m good.”

I would have loved to see a McQuarrie-helmed Star Wars film. He has a sensibility that would allow for a lower-stakes, lower-budget, but still riveting standalone. Way to go, fanboys. Way to fuck it up for everyone. They don’t seem to realize that filmmakers aren’t going to want to work with a fan base that will turn on them in a heart beat. They just don’t get it.

 

[ALF]

On the other hand - hiring a director/PR daredevil with the balls to confront the fans can also end up with some priceless headlines:

https://www.cnet.com/news/paul-feig-tribeca-trolls-ghostbusters/
"Ghostbusters' maker: Once upon a time, I loved the internet"

http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3362993/paul-feig-responds-to-ghostbusters-troll-go-fck-yourself/
Paul Feig Responds to ‘Ghostbusters’ Troll: “Go F*ck Yourself”

https://www.polygon.com/2016/5/6/11609668/paul-feig-ghostbusters-melissa-mccarthy
"Geek culture is home to some of the biggest assholes I've ever met in my life," Feig told the paper.

EDIT: from Campe98's link: "I consider myself first and foremost an entertainer. I work for the audience. Tonight I found people I could never work for."
There's a fatalistic logic in this. Gotta respect that.

 

[Mach5]

Honestly, if I were Kathleen Kennedy, I'd resign. Not out of any sense of responsibility, but because making movies for a friggin' army of entitled ingrates that are Star Wars fans must be the most unrewarding job in the universe.

George Lucas tried his best and eventually decided it wasn't worth it any more. "Why would I make more, when everybody keeps telling you what a terrible person you are."

Those words should be engraved above the Lucasfilm president's office door. At first they'll love you, then they'll end up hating your guts and asking for your head.

 

[fireproof78]

They don’t seem to realize that filmmakers aren’t going to want to work with a fan base that will turn on them in a heart beat. They just don’t get it.

That realization can only come after there is a negative consequences for the behavior. Unfortunately, if Lucas retired after the abuse, that just reinforced this behavior. So, what use to be a great job, where people would want to join up, is now something to be avoided.

 

[suarezguy]

Honestly, if I were Kathleen Kennedy, I'd resign. Not out of any sense of responsibility, but because making movies for a friggin' army of entitled ingrates that are Star Wars fans must be the most unrewarding job in the universe.

Why do you think Star Wars fans should be grateful for any film made?
And why do you think (or do you) that Star Wars fans are more demanding than those of other franchises?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Why do you think Star Wars fans should be grateful for any film made?
And why do you think, if you do, that Star Wars fans are more demanding than those of other franchises?

Because its the truth. The whining about the Last Jedi dwarfs every single conversation I've ever seen about Trek, and Trekkies literally invented fandom entitlement.