On a side note (although it does relate to the current conversation), io9 writer Beth Elderkin went through the ten biggest questions from the finale and provided some answers, varying from production quotes and her own speculation.
HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams
- Thread starter Ensign_Redshirt
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I'm sorry, that's a laughable and inaccurate list.
I have to ask, again: do you understand anything about how fiction works, at all? About television and movies?
First of all, learn to recognize the difference between a protagonist in narrative and a supporting or recurring character.
Here's your list, corrected:
Series protagonists who are alive at the end of season two:
Bernard
William
Delores
William
Delores
Hosts who can easily return:
Maeve Millay (protagonist, highly likely to remain so)
Hector Escaton (supporting character)
Armistice (supporting character)
Stubbs (supporting character)
Clementine (supporting character)
Hector Escaton (supporting character)
Armistice (supporting character)
Stubbs (supporting character)
Clementine (supporting character)
Hosts who are almost certain not to return:
Teddy Flood (supporting character)
Angela (supporting character)
Akecheta (odd one; briefly a protagonist but only on the show for the span of a few episodes).
Peter Abernathy (supporting character - another odd one; the producers don't rule him out specifically)
Angela (supporting character)
Akecheta (odd one; briefly a protagonist but only on the show for the span of a few episodes).
Peter Abernathy (supporting character - another odd one; the producers don't rule him out specifically)
Humans who are dead:
Costa (recurring character, season 2)
Karl Strand (recurring character, season 2)
Elsie Hughes (supporting character)
Emily (recurring character, season 2)
Karl Strand (recurring character, season 2)
Elsie Hughes (supporting character)
Emily (recurring character, season 2)
Additionally, Charlotte Hale and Robert Ford - Ford was arguably a protagonist in some respects and they are dead. At least Hale is, and the producers say that Ford is now deader than he was when his skull was blown open and brain destroyed by a close-range pistol shot.
Three of the show's four original protagonists are alive at the end of season two, with the fourth almost certain to return. Hale, the chief effective antagonist throughout the series, is easily replaced because of the nature of her role. ( I was about to say that as an actor Thompson would be anything but easy to replace - but I forgot, Thompson is playing a new* Host character who's quite alive and kickin').
Before you jump in and object, take a moment to recall that you already pronounced Maeve Not Only Really Dead But Really Most Sincerely Dead three or four weeks ago. You were characteristically mistaken, which was pretty obvious to quite a few of us at the time.
While you're at it, reflect on the fact that the producers firmly established visually and narratively, via Teddy's suicide, that a Host's Control Unit case completely protects the Marble itself from a close-range gun shot.
*Or more likely not a new Host. We'll find out whose Marble she has. Which brings up the point, of course, that assuming Bernard was one of the Five she smuggled out in her purse and "Charlotte" is carrying a second, at least three other Host characters have made it out. It seems likely that they're Hosts we've already met, but which ones? Pick from the list above, as you please.
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The original Clementine became too creepy, so I don't care if she doesn't return. But the new Clementine was cute, I wish we had seen more of her. I know they have said that Ford is gone for good, but I hope Anthony Hopkins comes back in some form. Him and Ed Harris really elevate the scenes they are in.
Clementine's body is probably salvageable, her original mind probably not, though I suppose the state of her original mind may be present in one of the other simulations.
Also, how would losing a bunch of actors limit the stories you can tell? You'd just need new characters and new actors. If nobody knows Hale is a host, she could potentially get access to the salvaged hosts like Maeve so they can build new bodies for them.
Let's also bear in mind some of the guest actors who played hosts who probably have salvageable bodies. Giancarlo Esposito, for one.
Why shouldn't Dolores be able to make a perfect copy of herself anyway? Westworld is a show whose level of real world fidelity wouldn't allow it to handwave questions like that. Why can't Dolores copy herself into other bodies?
Also, how would losing a bunch of actors limit the stories you can tell? You'd just need new characters and new actors. If nobody knows Hale is a host, she could potentially get access to the salvaged hosts like Maeve so they can build new bodies for them.
Let's also bear in mind some of the guest actors who played hosts who probably have salvageable bodies. Giancarlo Esposito, for one.
Why shouldn't Dolores be able to make a perfect copy of herself anyway? Westworld is a show whose level of real world fidelity wouldn't allow it to handwave questions like that. Why can't Dolores copy herself into other bodies?
Before you try and "correct" someone, you might want to make sure that you actually have the facts on your side .
Every character I listed as being a "Main Character" was played by an actor who is officially listed as being a Series Regular by HBO and whose name appeared in the opening credits of the series during Season 2.
There was also nothing inaccurate about my assessment of their current status.
I did accidentally forget about Clementine, but she was also a casualty of Season 2.
Also, even if we were to see some Host characters (Maeve, Hector, Armistice) return, comments from both Jonah and Lisa heavily suggest that the only way they would have any involvement in Season 3 is if they were taken from the Westworld park complex, and there is no indication that Dolores, Bernard, or "New Hale" have any reason to facilitate that happening.
Can you provide an actual quote of what they said so we can also interpret their statement instead of taking your word for it?
Here are links to both Jonah and Lisa's post-finale print interviews:
Jonah
Lisa
Both state through said interviews that we will see little to nothing of the Westworld park complex during Season 3, which would necessitate any currently parkbound Host characters being brought out of the park complex in order to appear.
Maeve is coming back in season 3, of course.
Definitely check things out for yourself. Digificwriter has been completely wrong about what was going on and what would happen on this show, and on Game of Thrones and others so many times that it's become downright statistically bizarre...Jon Snow alone being one of the most obviously telegraphed plot moves in recent TV history. And pronouncing Maeve dead while she's lying on a gurney in the Mesa with Sizemore hovering nearby? If you've watched American TV and movies for any length of time and with any attention, how can you miss so many basic narrative cues, over and over?
Definitely check things out for yourself. Digificwriter has been completely wrong about what was going on and what would happen on this show, and on Game of Thrones and others so many times that it's become downright statistically bizarre...Jon Snow alone being one of the most obviously telegraphed plot moves in recent TV history. And pronouncing Maeve dead while she's lying on a gurney in the Mesa with Sizemore hovering nearby? If you've watched American TV and movies for any length of time and with any attention, how can you miss so many basic narrative cues, over and over?
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^ I take things at face value until/unless I'm given a reason not to; Sue me.
Do whatever you like. Just stop insisting to people that you know what you're talking about and correcting them as if you have some worthwhile foreknowledge or have shown demonstrably good intuition: you don't and you haven't, and it's tedious.
The writers have license here to do whatever they like to permit repair or reconfiguration of the Hosts' minds - they've built it into the story as they've gone along. Just as how they've established, in bits and pieces, how durable Host bodies are under fire, they've shown us every kind of thing done to the Hosts minds almost casually. It's human avatars that are beyond the realm of anyone's powers at this moment, within Westworld - they've been explicit about that. Hosts are always fixable.
On the subject of the Sublime, the producer says:
THR: As the real world becomes a playground moving into season three, will we return to the Sublime as well?
Lisa Joy: I think we have to take Dolores at face value. It's locked away. Humans can't access it anymore. They're gone. They're in a place we can't touch. There was an interesting corollary to this for me. Even religions and mythologies deal with this, an idea of a heaven or a nirvana where you don't have to be attached to your body anymore. You can be pure and free in that way. It's a sort of digital afterlife for them. The stakes and the finality of it are important. It's not something where I think the humans can type it up and get back in and start messing with them anymore.
Lisa Joy: I think we have to take Dolores at face value. It's locked away. Humans can't access it anymore. They're gone. They're in a place we can't touch. There was an interesting corollary to this for me. Even religions and mythologies deal with this, an idea of a heaven or a nirvana where you don't have to be attached to your body anymore. You can be pure and free in that way. It's a sort of digital afterlife for them. The stakes and the finality of it are important. It's not something where I think the humans can type it up and get back in and start messing with them anymore.
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Why wouldn't Dolores and Hale try to build their army? Hale has access to the park still.
Well, that's it for season two. The robo-stampede in the corridors was kind of cool.
So where did we end up after ten episodes of interminable gunplay and other assorted disorderly conduct? Dolores killed by Bernard and resurrected by Bernard, Bernard killed by Dolores and resurrected by Dolores, Maeve dead but destined to be resurrected by Mutt and Jeff, Charlotte dead and not really resurrected but her identity stolen by Dolores, hunky security guy alive but complicit in Dolores's escape, and the last chunks of MIB still clinging to life. And Elsie just dead. And some of the Westworld robots got to escape to the robotic hereafter (including Maeve's semi-daughter and the Ghost Nation guy, along with his wife, thankfully)-- although none of the Shogun robots, or any robots from the other four worlds, were so lucky. Tough luck, other genres.
And all of those mostly non-sentient characters are now apparently inaccessible forever, thanks to Dolores, although I'm not sure exactly what she did. Were they beamed to the memory of some random comsat, or spread out among all the Delos comsats, where their memory usage is bound to be noticed, or where they are bound to eventually fail or de-orbit? Or were they sent to some location on the dark web, in an unaddressed server hosted by the Principality of Sealand? Or are they alive inside a transmission on its way to Alpha Centauri? I'm not really feeling that they could possibly be in a safe place.
And it seems really contrived that both Bernard and Dolores would resurrect each other, given their ideological differences. "We must work together, but not as friends." Right. This from the embodiment of 21st century extremism and intolerance. It also seems odd that Bernard would resurrect her in Charlotte's image. You'd think he'd just make another copy of himself to stop the company people-- or just set that army of Bernards marching. I really wanted to see that. In any case, it seems that Dolores wasted no time in getting her own body back, so I'm not sure where that leaves the casting situation for season three.
And we never got a solid reason for MIB's ability to survive more lead-slinging than Maeve, or a definitive answer to his robothood. Although, oddly enough, my most frivolous theory, that some of this takes place in deep time, seems to have come true to some degree. Because there he was-- or will be-- with his daughter, who is now a robot even she wasn't before, testing him for fidelity as he continues to repeat his hard-luck story ad infinitum. So was that a repeat loop when he was obsessing over his arm before his wife's suicide? And was that a repeat loop when he got shot 337 times and survived? Maybe he only got shot twice in the original event, but that was a particularly nasty cycle.
Anyway, it looks like next season will involve Bernard trying to stop Dolores from killing all humans, but I'm sure Maeve and MIB will be there, and maybe MIB's daughter and the hunky security guy. And Charlotte's body with a mind of some kind. The story for this season probably could have been told in a two-hour movie, so hopefully next year will be a bit meatier.
So where did we end up after ten episodes of interminable gunplay and other assorted disorderly conduct? Dolores killed by Bernard and resurrected by Bernard, Bernard killed by Dolores and resurrected by Dolores, Maeve dead but destined to be resurrected by Mutt and Jeff, Charlotte dead and not really resurrected but her identity stolen by Dolores, hunky security guy alive but complicit in Dolores's escape, and the last chunks of MIB still clinging to life. And Elsie just dead. And some of the Westworld robots got to escape to the robotic hereafter (including Maeve's semi-daughter and the Ghost Nation guy, along with his wife, thankfully)-- although none of the Shogun robots, or any robots from the other four worlds, were so lucky. Tough luck, other genres.
And all of those mostly non-sentient characters are now apparently inaccessible forever, thanks to Dolores, although I'm not sure exactly what she did. Were they beamed to the memory of some random comsat, or spread out among all the Delos comsats, where their memory usage is bound to be noticed, or where they are bound to eventually fail or de-orbit? Or were they sent to some location on the dark web, in an unaddressed server hosted by the Principality of Sealand? Or are they alive inside a transmission on its way to Alpha Centauri? I'm not really feeling that they could possibly be in a safe place.
And it seems really contrived that both Bernard and Dolores would resurrect each other, given their ideological differences. "We must work together, but not as friends." Right. This from the embodiment of 21st century extremism and intolerance. It also seems odd that Bernard would resurrect her in Charlotte's image. You'd think he'd just make another copy of himself to stop the company people-- or just set that army of Bernards marching. I really wanted to see that. In any case, it seems that Dolores wasted no time in getting her own body back, so I'm not sure where that leaves the casting situation for season three.
And we never got a solid reason for MIB's ability to survive more lead-slinging than Maeve, or a definitive answer to his robothood. Although, oddly enough, my most frivolous theory, that some of this takes place in deep time, seems to have come true to some degree. Because there he was-- or will be-- with his daughter, who is now a robot even she wasn't before, testing him for fidelity as he continues to repeat his hard-luck story ad infinitum. So was that a repeat loop when he was obsessing over his arm before his wife's suicide? And was that a repeat loop when he got shot 337 times and survived? Maybe he only got shot twice in the original event, but that was a particularly nasty cycle.
Anyway, it looks like next season will involve Bernard trying to stop Dolores from killing all humans, but I'm sure Maeve and MIB will be there, and maybe MIB's daughter and the hunky security guy. And Charlotte's body with a mind of some kind. The story for this season probably could have been told in a two-hour movie, so hopefully next year will be a bit meatier.
Charlotte is the highest-ranking human in Westworld who is there in an official working capacity, and would therefore have unquestionable and unrestricted freedom to come and go as she pleases, as well as access to resources that others would not.
Yes, we did. Up until that post-credits scene, which takes place in the "far, far future", William is and always was 100% human.
Is that an option? Because your track record for predictions is that frickin' bad. But even worse is that it's combined with a completely undeserved arrogance about their accuracy that never falters no matter how many times you're proven spectacularly wrong about plot developments that even casual viewers could see coming from miles away.
You could time travel to 2068, pick up a Gray's Sports Almanac of the past fifty years of scores, come back in time, and still lose money betting on sports.
It's not even a big deal that you get the predictions so wildly wrong so often, though it is pretty humorous to watch. It's the constant insufferable lectures and insistence that you are right like you're some kind of big-shot TV insider when you don't even seem to grasp basic foreshadowing and plotting.
I keep hoping at some point you're going to learn from your mistakes and dial it back, but you always keep smacking right into that wall each time.
This is exactly it.
Everyone who guesses, guesses wrong sometimes. Every one of us.
"Taking things at face value until there's a reason to think otherwise" is not descriptive of insisting that one is right about things that one cannot know, before they occur, and then refusing to acknowledge available evidence and information that contradicts one's latest ill-informed and ill-reasoned conclusion.
No, it isn't that at all.
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They use biometric security systems, so I would imagine that scans of Hale's and every other employee's and guest's retinas and fingerprints and even DNA exist in the database and can be recreated by the nano-assembler thingies (technical term) down to the most minute detail.
One thing that seems to be true is that the show just shrugs off the existence of all kinds of surveillance and security technology and procedures that are in use now and that you'd expect in a place like the Delos parks. Most of the time it looks like if you gain entrance to the facility and particularly if you're employed at the Mesa in any capacity you can go just about anywhere and do anything without being noticed or stopped.
I mean, if your job is in "livestock management" you can go ahead and fuck a Host in a glass room on your lunch break.
So, I kind of expect that the same kind of hand-waving will be done where, oh, the ability of Delores and Bernard - two human beings with no histories or documentation of any kind and who would probably fail any kind of close medical examination that they weren't prepared for or in control of, for example - to move around in the world as they wish. Likewise Hale's ability to do the same and to interact freely with people who Hale has known and worked with for years, etc.
There is, as you say, more than enough biometric data, imaging and so forth of all the Delos Hosts that any organized attempts to identify and locate them in a presumably slightly more advanced version of our own civilization would not be a technical challenge.
Expect that to either not come up or be cursorily dealt with, because I don't expect that Joy and Nolan are interested in turning WW into a "runner show."
And I'll probably be wrong about all that.
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