You are absolutely entitled to that opinion. But people usually don't show up in droves to films that are poorly written.
Where does the core saga go after Episode 9?
- Thread starter Jedi Marso
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You are absolutely entitled to that opinion. But people usually don't show up in droves to films that are poorly written.
To go back to the original question, I loved both TFA and TLJ, but I think at this point I'd rather see the movies move away from the Skywalker Saga and just focus on the "Star War Story" movies.
If they do continue the Skywalker saga, which they most likely will, I'd like to see them move away from the Rebels/Resistance vs The Empire/First Order conflict onto something totally different.
If they do continue the Skywalker saga, which they most likely will, I'd like to see them move away from the Rebels/Resistance vs The Empire/First Order conflict onto something totally different.
Which might be risky, since even TFA/TLJ rely on the OT's aesthetics. Arguably too much so. So would sticking to everything Skywalker, core audiences will get bored with the same despite being the same ones who'll attack any change because it's not what they wanted, whatever that would be.
That and TFA doesn't really begin to explain how its First Order took over from The Empire. Like "Rogue One", there's an anthology to be made... only this time it's to fill in gaps in the story to explain attrition, buildup, and expansion... and not take two minutes of existing dialogue and screen text crawl and pad it into a two hour movie the way "Rogue One" rested on ANH's laurels.
Poorly produced, I agree. Poor writing doesn't matter if something else coddles the audience while playing the pied piper flute. Look at how apologetic people were toward "The Force Awakens" despite it offering absolutely nothing new - just a mishmash of set pieces taken from the original trilogy because nostalgia feels better than trying something different, which the prequels proved but for all the wrong reasons (stick figure dialogue). Imagine if you're reading a nine chapter book, you've read it up to chapter six. You note they're doing another Big Bad and decide to take a break after getting done with that chapter. Years later, as you read chapter seven, you notice it's structurally identical to episode four (wasn't the reused elements in episode six lame enough?) but with a few different characters, poorly masked. What makes a vook ("video book", which sounds as stupid as a vlogger or VJ but whatever) any different to a book? There are plenty of examples, especially in the original SW trilogy, that reek or poor writing. The 1977 original, retitled "episode IV" in 1980, being a rather glorious example of special effects holding (the ultimate pus-dripping cliché of a sub-lamentable B-flick that I could spend three hours sitting here tearing rightly to shreds but without episodes V and VI that end up making IV look even worse as a result) together?
I don't agree with the idea that the new trilogy films are poorly written, but I'd disagree with your statement and as evidence I'd refer you to the Transformers movies. Poorly written movies can still do well if they've got some other entertainment value.
While not really core, I would love to see a Shadows of the Empire movie. Rogue One style.
It's funny, when it all came out back in the mid-90's they did everything for it except make the movie. I think it would have been the perfect opportunity for GL and Lucasfilm to get back into making SW movies, and the technology at that time was almost to where GL wanted it when he did the SE's.
Not sure what kind of shape Hamil and Fisher were in in '96, but only 13 years had passed since ROTJ. Han was frozen in carbonite, so no worries about getting Harrison Ford on board.
SOTE wouldn't work as well now, I don't think, given the current state of the franchise and the de-canonization of the whole EU. However, elements of it could very easily be adapted into follow on adventures for Rey and co. after EP IX, or even a Solo sequel, as unlikely as THAT seems now.
I liked the direction they took in The Last Jedi. I don't want to see more Skywalkers battle with good and evil and save the galaxy, I want to see the next generation of force users leave the Jedi and the Sith behind and build up their own thing, move Star Wars into uncharted territory.
I want the thousands of broom kids of the universe to rediscover what the force means without help and tradition, or labels, and make their own decisions, and face their own consequences.
I want the thousands of broom kids of the universe to rediscover what the force means without help and tradition, or labels, and make their own decisions, and face their own consequences.
I'm wondering if that's the direction the series was meant to take. The great thing about Rey is that she does come from nobody and despite that, she's a powerful Jedi. You don't have to be from the Skywalker line to be great, anyone can be. That kid with the broom displaying the Force maybe means that there are plenty of equally powerful Jedi out there just like Rey. Maybe this is because the Force is awakening and wiping out the entire system. This is beyond the Jedi vs the Sith, the Force is trying to stop the endless cycle of the Jedi and Sith wiping each other out over and over again. Even Rey's philosophy on the Force seems to be less concerned with the Dark Side and more about getting Kylo to stop the war with her.
The energy, spiritualism and philosophy of the force--and its understanding / application never worked that way. It was never a "make it up as you go" / "whatever you want it to be" concept. There was a right and wrong way to the Force. When individuals tried to make it up as they felt, or ignore what they did not like, you ended up with the corruption / bastardization of the Force as seen in its worst forms--Anakin and the rest of the Sith.
In the Star Wars concept, part of its mythical identity was the fact that the age-old fairy tale ideas of special characters or groups with matching ability were unique, and central to having some impact in the story beyond the capabilities of other characters. That's the heart of Star Wars, particularly in the original story of Luke (episodes 4-6), why he's special, and how he uses that status in his journey. In the expanded sense, that applies to certain Jedi characters who would be pivotal players in the shaping of their galaxy. In other words, in the fairy tale, there would be certain characters that--as a result of their unique ability and worldview--formed the mythical nature of the series. That cannot be randomly sprinkled to anyone who happens to be there.
I'd disagree with that. I don't think we ever got a clear, unbiased understanding of the force. Everything that was explained about it in the movies so far was coming either from the viewpoint of the Jedi (through Obi-Wan and Yoda, who are representatives of the particular viewpoint they were part of) or the Sith (who represent a different viewpoint). There's nothing to say that there aren't other ways of learning and using the force that aren't restricted to those two viewpoints. It's just that the Jedi and the Sith are presented by their representatives as the only two options.
Or it's because it's always been that way, awakening or no awakening. You never had to be from the Skywalker line to be great. In the PT era there were Jedi all over the place and exactly one of them was a Skywalker. Mace Windu wasn't a Skywalker. Yoda wasn't a Skywalker. There were always unknown numbers of "broom boys" and "broom girls" out there, it's why the Jedi were doing the midichlorian testing thing.
I agree here. That is in part why Rey's lineage is a great disappointment.
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Not really, the Jedi/Sith duality represents one particular aspect of how force sensitives can use or abuse their affinity. But it was never truly defined how that works (even post midichlorians) and it is made clear that the force is far more than their spirituality and powers. It is inherent to any and all life in the galaxy, it can be accessed and understood in many ways and on many levels without ever once involving anything even remotely similar to Jedi training.
That made it far more egalitarian than the narrow focus on the Jedi and the Sith, far more in line with a traditional nature spirit or chi/qi/lifeforce, accessible by those open to it but still beyond anyone's true mastery, ambiguous in it's true nature as either an underlying organic principle or sentient, decision making entity.
I think Avatar was poorly written. Beautifully captured with its visuals but the story was trite.
The force as developed in the GL fairy tale is rooted in the ancient spiritual/philosophical conflicts (and learned application) between good and evil. That's all but screaming in 1977, as "good monk/priest" Kenobi is set up as the opposite of "dark monk/fallen priest" Vader. That--and needing faith and training to access it is the way the Force was presented from the start. Obi-Wan's constant instruction/reminder to Luke is to" let go" of the conscious mind and use the force--or, trust in a specific faith that's never left up to the user to make up as he goes along, or "just happen". In fact, in 1999, in his many interviews given around the release of The Phantom Menace, Lucas, in discussing the creation of the force said--
While he was not specifically promoting a particular real world religion, its clear that faith in the force as presented in Star Wars has its parallels in how people related to, use and believe in a higher power, only in the fantasy of his movies, this extends to a set system of beliefs, history, spiritual philosophy and training to use supernatural power. Within that spiritual philosophy rests set, proven ideas and methodology about the light and dark sides, how one believes and trains to access either side. This is the force as it was constructed in the OT & PT, with characters either expressing or acting on this spiritualism/methodology.
Further, it was never removed from structure, and certainly not a "make it up as you go", idea or ability every person could access, hence the reason the Jedi had a program to seek out those unique individuals of an obvious limited number who had the potential to access the force (as understood in the spiritual belief/philosophy), otherwise the Jedi ranks would have been filled with millions if the idea that anyone was capable of using the force was the intent. Removing or altering that also removes the mythical, fairy tale staple of unique heroes gifted with special abilities who have a higher purpose in the story.
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Such as the yin/yang duality of taoism, the real world philosophy that incorporates chi, an almost word for word analogue for the force? GL was pretty open about having been inspired by it even though he drew on other real, world analogues to round out the portrayal.
Of course, I'm not really sure why this needs spelling out....
Yes, but those methodologies vary widely, you are focusing narrowly on the western traditions which least parallel the force as presented. Mush like with the force, the practise of eastern spirituality acknowledges that the disciplines are just a means to an end, ways for people to understand and interact with a force (no pun intended) which is simultaneously outside of themselves and flowing through them. Not once are those disciplines purpoted to be the only way to sense or interact with that phenomena, much as with the force,
Also by George Lucas:
Compare this to:
But it was, the structure was a process applied to allow the mind a route to access that which is already there, it's literally spelled out in Obi Wan's explanation to Luke as quoted above. Force users have always been a commonplace phenomenon in the SW universe precisely because everyone is a force user on some level. Simply being alive is using the force, whether you are a jedi, a sith or a cabbage growing in a field. That some were more sensitive was never explained in the OT, it was merely a case of opening oneself up tot he force and some people were simple more adept and open to that by virtue of some combination of mental attributes, personality and experience.
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And genetics. Otherwise the whole thing about anyone being a "last hope" gets a bit untenable if it's really all about finding someone with the right personality - of which there would be literally trillions everywhere.
"The Force is strong in my family." Right there is a perfect opportunity to explain to the listener that, no, in fact you're wrong, my dear, you have that power too - just because you're a person! Instead, for some reason, what gets said is a very different message which ends up being about biological relations. This to someone with a very different personality, raised by different people in a completely different environment. Because none of that was relevant. Any offspring of Anakin, regardless of personal attributes, would have been considered a threat to Palpatine.