Why did Kirk have to go Genesis?

[Gavin70]

Honestly, it doesn't matter what Saavik's backstory was or the intentions of the writers or whatever. As a military service (yeah, I said it, deal with it) Starfleet would require its personnel to specify any customs or rituals they expect regarding their body or remains in the event of death in service. If being taken to Mount Seleya were important to Spock, and evidently it was given that Dr. McCoy is in Spock's quarters babbling about Mount Seleya at the start of TSFS, it would have been in Spock's file, a file Kirk would have consulted upon Spock's death.

My understanding was that Spock, as a half-Vulcan, didn't expect to be able to transfer his katra and had explicitly left instructions that his body wasn't to be returned to Vulcan (possibly those instructions dated from before he'd reconciled with his father and he'd neglected to update them, or he just didn't think it was necessary). In the event he that was able to transfer his katra he expected that the person receiving it would be able to give proper instructions on his behalf. Unfortunately, while he was able to make the transfer, it wasn't completely successful (because he was half Vulcan and the receiving party was human and not Vulcan?) and McCoy wasn't able to understand what had happened (I imagine in a successful transfer the Vulcan consciousness would be able to communicate with the host consciousness).

 

[DonIago]

^That does sound like things that may have been said in the novelization as well.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Perhaps a simple (unconfirmable) explanation is that while the katra was in McCoy's head, it also retained a connection with the body of Spock.

This seems plausible. Otherwise Spock’s katra got the knowledge of his body being shot at Genesis from McCoy. Although that doesn’t explain how the katra knew that the body was intact - I guess the katra sensed the presence of the living body on Genesis and so compelled McCoy to reach out to Kirk to go get it.

Question is - was there a katra in the regenerated body of Spock? Was that katra overwritten by the original Spock katra? We can see that the body is able to function and capable of cognitive thought - it wasn’t like a pc with no operating system - or maybe a better analogy would be that the body had a functional bios but needed windows or Linux installing to function properly? What would have happened to the Spock body if they’d not reinstalled Spock during the fal tor pan?

 

[Timo]

I doubt a katra amounts to much as such - dumping all that remains of Surak into a modern body wouldn't really bring back the man, just some fragmentary memories of him in the ideal case. And it wouldn't "overwrite" Archer, although it might mess him up pretty badly.

I also doubt there is any effect to the donor from giving the katra to somebody else - he doesn't lose anything in the process of donating this "essence" of his.

Katra as a backup need not be a concern - it may well never be applicable as such. But it may serve an eldritch role in reanimating the dead, or a cultural role in preserving the dead, in truly ideal conditions. Which Sarek might realize (or hope against hope) are at hand here. But he may be the only Vulcan insane enough to think along these lines.

As for why Kirk would go to Genesis, not only are two Vulcans telling him to, there is also a lot of unvoiced exchange of ideas going on - Kirk and Sarek meld, after all! What Kirk knows, Sarek knows, and what Sarek knows, Kirk knows. Or that is how melds worked in TOS, at any rate.

The rest is just a matter of timing. Kirk and Sarek both may well be up to date on Genesis events, being in the loop by profession. Poor editing need not contradict that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gavin70]

^That does sound like things that may have been said in the novelization as well.

Probably true. I suspect I've read the novelisation more times than I've watched the movie. There was quite a lot that was cut from the released movie - either edited out to make the story flow better or never filmed. But a lot of what was cut adds significantly to the story, in my opinion. We also had the first reference to Sulu's promotion to captain, which was cut.

 

[DonIago]

Actually that first reference is in the novelization of TWOK.

But yeah, I really missed the visit to the Genesis Cave and Carol's eulogies for her dead staff, which I thought were interesting and poignant parts of the novelization.

 

[Gavin70]

Actually that first reference is in the novelization of TWOK.

It is, but it was intended to be in the movie as well. It was in the script. Reasons why it was cut vary, but George Takei maintains that Shatner had it removed because he didn't want Sulu getting attention.

 

[Green]

There was virtually nothing in the TWOK script that wasn't filmed. If you go to places like Trekcore and read the script - it was all filmed. Little bits of dialogue may have been compressed or eliminated during shooting but every major missing scene in the script is in the rough cut at UCLA

 

[Maurice]

It's probably not clear in the movie but the original script (and the novelisation) makes it clear that Saavik was half Vulcan half Romulan, a child of rape and raised on a fairly lawless world until she was discovered and rescued by Spock. Her exposure to Vulcan ways was fairly limited.

The original script merely has one line that explains she's half-Romulan, but there's no backstory. The strike-out is where you struck out.

 

[Gavin70]

The original script merely has one line that explains she's half-Romulan, but there's no backstory. The strike-out is where you struck out.

Yeah my brain is easily confused - the back story is in the novelisation not the original script - the back story may have been intended for the character but if so it didn't make it into the script otherwise it was just invented for the novelisation. Either way I like it as a backstory because it adds a lot to the character and (to me) makes sense.

 

[Commishsleer]

There was virtually nothing in the TWOK script that wasn't filmed. If you go to places like Trekcore and read the script - it was all filmed. Little bits of dialogue may have been compressed or eliminated during shooting but every major missing scene in the script is in the rough cut at UCLA

So Saavik's half-Romulan heritage revelation line was filmed?

 

[Green]

So Saavik's half-Romulan heritage revelation line was filmed?

Yes. That deleted scene is widely available on youtube.

 

[Green]

There are the only two substantial sections from the TWOK script that are not known to have been shot.
This first one involving Spock mentoring Saavik was possibly not filmed because they wanted to get the story rolling faster.
SAAVIK
He's not what I expected, Sir.

SPOCK
What did you expect, Lieutenant?

SAAVIK
(uncertain)
He's very human.

SPOCK
We can't all be perfect, Saavik.
You must control your prejudices
and remember that as a Vulcan as
well as a Romulan you are forever
a stranger in an alien land.
Around you are humans, and as a
member of the Starfleet you are
unlikely ever to escape their
presence or their influence.
You must learn to tolerance in addition
to all else I have taught you.
Tolerance is logical.

This second bit almost certainly was filmed but it was deleted very early as they rearranged the reveal of when Khan was in command of Reliant till after Chekov contacts Carol.


JOACHIM
Steady on course. All systems normal.

KHAN
It's not much different from
Enterprise.
(beat)
When I was a guest aboard her some
years ago, Captain Kirk kindly allowed
me to memorize her technical manuals.
And now, Mr. Chekov, let us review:
You say you have no details of
Project 'Genesis' ?

CHEKOV
Beyond what I told you, sir, it is
classified information.

KHAN
Umm. And would Admiral Kirk have
access to such information?

CHEKOV
I would think so, sir. He's on the
Fleet General Staff.

KHAN
Then to whom do you report directly
regarding Genesis?

CHEKOV
To Doctor Marcus, the civilian
director of the experiments on Space
Laboratory Regula I.

KHAN
(thinks)
I see. Helmsman?

HELMSMAN
Aye, sir.

JOACHIM
May I speak? We're all with you,
sir, but consider: we are free,
we have a ship and the means to
go where we will. We have
escaped permanent exile on Ceti
Alpha V. You have proved your
superior intellect and defeated
the plans of Admiral Kirk.
You do not need to defeat him
again.

KHAN
He tasks me -- and I'll have him. I'll
chase him round the moons of Nibia
and round the Antares maelstrom and
round perdition's flames before I give
him up.
(as no one speaks)
Prepare to alter course -- for Space
Station Regula I

That's it. If you read the script and see lines you don't recognize it is because they were edited out -- NOT because they were never filmed. Having seen the Director's Cut and the UCLA rough cut I can vouch for all the rest being shot. The only exception I can't vouch for is the very end of the movie after Spock leaves the bridge to fix the engines. The rough cut at UCLA does not contain that portion of the movie.

 

[Maurice]

Also, remember that scripts in production often get "change pages" that may or may not be in the copies that are floating around out there.

 

[Green]

Right. But in the case of the TWOK script at Trekcore. -- that script was essentially shot as it is. If you read that script -- you will know what was shot and what was cut.

A lot of times you read a script and think, I wonder if this part I don't recognize was ever actually shot or was discarded before filming.
For example people often speculated if the original version of Kirk fighting David was actually shot -- it was. People told me that the shot from the poster with David holding a knife to Kirk on the ground was purely a publicity shot. Wrong.
If Khan mentioning Marla by name was shot -- it was. If the baby in the cargo container was shot -- it was. If Terrell tricking Reliant into beaming up Khan was shot -- it was. If the Sulu promotion scene was shot to the point where it could have been included or was it "ruined" as Takei claims. It was usable and was not ruined and could have been easily included if they had wanted. If the scene where McCoy stated he had served with Terrell was shot -- it was.

 

[Marsden]

Probably true. I suspect I've read the novelisation more times than I've watched the movie. There was quite a lot that was cut from the released movie - either edited out to make the story flow better or never filmed. But a lot of what was cut adds significantly to the story, in my opinion. We also had the first reference to Sulu's promotion to captain, which was cut.

It was also in this novel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pandora_Principle

 

[Phoenix219]

This seems plausible. Otherwise Spock’s katra got the knowledge of his body being shot at Genesis from McCoy. Although that doesn’t explain how the katra knew that the body was intact - I guess the katra sensed the presence of the living body on Genesis and so compelled McCoy to reach out to Kirk to go get it.

Question is - was there a katra in the regenerated body of Spock? Was that katra overwritten by the original Spock katra? We can see that the body is able to function and capable of cognitive thought - it wasn’t like a pc with no operating system - or maybe a better analogy would be that the body had a functional bios but needed windows or Linux installing to function properly? What would have happened to the Spock body if they’d not reinstalled Spock during the fal tor pan?

If they took the child Spock, with no katra, and stabilized its age, and just taught and raised it, would it have been a unique person?

 

[thribs]

Same reason why God needs a starship. Because... reasons.

 

[johnnybear]

I've always wondered why they didn't use or even reference the Galactic Barrier at the edge of our galaxy instead?
JB

 

[Lord Garth]

"Life from lifelessness." Spock was lifeless. Maybe life could emerge from Spock's lifeless body is what Kirk was thinking (which is what actually did happen). He should've left a probe.