Discovery Showrunners fired; Kurtzman takes over

[eschaton]

I think this may have been me. The Delta Quadrant should have been weird if only to make it stand out from the series that came before it.

I admit it would have been cool if the VOY writing team decided to just not do aliens at all for a season. The in-show logic could be they were passing through a large area of space which appeared to have been wracked by a gigantic war millennia ago. They could still have away missions on planets with life, deal with alien artifacts, and maybe some still-operational machines. But not a single other sentient lifeform. It would have limited guest stars (unless they were in recordings or in a holodeck episode) but I think it would have been a great exercise to not fall into the same tired Trekian tropes.

 

[Kane_Steel]

Except in this scenario, the dominion can be interchanged with an entirely new race, so why use them if not for nostalgia and fanwank? And yes it would need some explanation of events from Deep Space Nine, especially if the characters in this universe consider the dominion to be a 'mystery'.. That mystery would need to explained would it not? Like for example how Odo may have changed the culture of the dominion to become less antagonistic. Should something that important be relegated to a throw away line? For that matter, you then need to explain to the new audience who Odo is, how he formed his progressive position on solids, which would require an explanation of his time on Deep Space Nine.

A lot of the arguments you make for why this series would work sound a lot like things you would bitch about if discovery tried it.

Odo, whether he still exists as an individual or not, doesn't need to even be addressed. There's no need to reference him or any other Ds9 characters until seasons into the show's run.

The mystery would be explained; exploring this version of the Dominion through the eyes of generations who have never encountered them before mirrors that of the audience who are being introduced to them for the first time.

The Dominion were the logical choice for my idea given their past conflict with the Federation being the key driving tension between the two lead characters.

I have ideas for completely original species too, but world-building on the established material is fine if done right. It's all in the execution.

Been done and doesn't feel consistent with the Star Trek ethos, espeically of the time period. Certainly, I would be invested in characters if they are well done. Doesn't make it a Star Trek story I want to see.

The time period of the 25th century is a blank slate. That's the advantage of setting it there. It makes logical sense for the Federation to be quite different after the war.

It hasn't really been done before. We never before had two brutal enemies forced to work together as Captain and First Officer. We had Janeway and Chakotay, but that doesn't really come close to this. There's room for some unique character dynamics and conflict.

 

[Lord Garth]

I admit it would have been cool if the VOY writing team decided to just not do aliens at all for a season. The in-show logic could be they were passing through a large area of space which appeared to have been wracked by a gigantic war millennia ago. They could still have away missions on planets with life, deal with alien artifacts, and maybe some still-operational machines. But not a single other sentient lifeform. It would have limited guest stars (unless they were in recordings or in a holodeck episode) but I think it would have been a great exercise to not fall into the same tired Trekian tropes.

Sounds along the lines of the first half of "Night", except they had The Void.

 

[Kane_Steel]

A lot of what makes Trek a bit stale as a concept - and why a smart reboot wouldn't be bad - is how unalien alien races are. Due to historic budgetary constraints, they have almost always been shown as humanoid. But what's worse is they are inexplicably almost always within a few hundred years of the Federation in terms of development - unless they're some godlike energy beings. If you're just going to repeatedly tell stories about aliens who are basically human - who have tech pretty much indistinguishable from the Federation, and a culture which is less alien than a lot of human cultures are today - just have them be splinter colonies of humans or something.

I made this exact point before.

If you really want to get scientific, it's actually nearly impossible for humanoid species to exist on other worlds. We are the result of billions of years of evolution in reaction to specific events on our planet. See this:

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[Mad Jack Wolfe]

I've been one of the vocal critics of DISCO. [Yeah, the chorus of "No sh*t!" was expected] But I am not averse to the idea of a prequel. Done properly, it could work. It requires a delicate balancing act, but more importantly, it requires the storyteller not run roughshod over established "future" material. If said "future" material specifies thus and such crew or this big a ship, it had better damned well be honoured. Otherwise, you have stumbled into revisionist territory. Had they wanted to back up and use old themes in a new way, they could have invoked "The Red Menace", The Klingons as the Soviets (a la TOS), or Al Queda. Or anyone wanting minimum wage raised to US$15/hour, something like that.

I have no desire to see a show based in a post-Voyager frame. That's the problem with science fiction. The further you project ahead of where humanity is, the harder it is to connect with your audience. Yes, it's been done to varying levels of success. But Trek is a different animal. It doesn't translate well in this regard. It needs to be rooted in today's hopes and fears. That's how TOS did it. And TNG. And DS9. Etc, etc...

 

[fireproof78]

Odo, whether he still exists as an individual or not, doesn't need to even be addressed. There's no need to reference him or any other Ds9 characters until seasons into the show's run.

The mystery would be explained; exploring this version of the Dominion through the eyes of generations who have never encountered them before mirrors that of the audience who are being introduced to them for the first time.

The Dominion were the logical choice for my idea given their past conflict with the Federation being the key driving tension between the two lead characters.

I have ideas for completely original species too, but world-building on the established material is fine if done right. It's all in the execution.



The time period of the 25th century is a blank slate. That's the advantage of setting it there. It makes logical sense for the Federation to be quite different after the war.

It hasn't really been done before. We never before had two brutal enemies forced to work together as Captain and First Officer. We had Janeway and Chakotay, but that doesn't really come close to this. There's room for some unique character dynamics and conflict.

It has been done before, just on a smaller scale. Again, it doesn't mean that the dynamic is appropriate for Star Trek setting. Again, potential but not necessary the best way to start up a new show, or sustain a series. Again, a good one shot, but sustainable? No.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Odo, whether he still exists as an individual or not, doesn't need to even be addressed. There's no need to reference him or any other Ds9 characters until seasons into the show's run.

The mystery would be explained; exploring this version of the Dominion through the eyes of generations who have never encountered them before mirrors that of the audience who are being introduced to them for the first time.

The Dominion were the logical choice for my idea given their past conflict with the Federation being the key driving tension between the two lead characters.

I have ideas for completely original species too, but world-building on the established material is fine if done right. It's all in the execution.



The time period of the 25th century is a blank slate. That's the advantage of setting it there. It makes logical sense for the Federation to be quite different after the war.

It hasn't really been done before. We never before had two brutal enemies forced to work together as Captain and First Officer. We had Janeway and Chakotay, but that doesn't really come close to this. There's room for some unique character dynamics and conflict.

Odo was crucial to the end of the war, if it hadn't of been for him the Dominion would have fought to the last man. Surely there would need to be an explanation of why the war ended and some speculation on why the dominion is now less aggressive towards the federation.

So the show is set 30 years after the dominion war, probably the most destructive war the alpha quadrant has seen and you have a captain who fought the dominion and everyone has forgotten them? Do they not study history at starfleet academy anymore?

Why is using the dominion is necessary for tension between the two lead characters? New viewers apparently don't need to know the history behind the dominion and therefore you could use an entirely new culture, so why the unnecessary fanservice of using the dominion?

You're right it's all in the execution, and with an idea that is tantamount to fan-fiction filled with fanwankery, it would no doubt be awful.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I admit it would have been cool if the VOY writing team decided to just not do aliens at all for a season. The in-show logic could be they were passing through a large area of space which appeared to have been wracked by a gigantic war millennia ago. They could still have away missions on planets with life, deal with alien artifacts, and maybe some still-operational machines. But not a single other sentient lifeform. It would have limited guest stars (unless they were in recordings or in a holodeck episode) but I think it would have been a great exercise to not fall into the same tired Trekian tropes.

Yeah, something like that would have been awesome, but i can also imagine the fan outrage ('What no aliens? is star trek or seaquest' *snort*). The DQ should have been those areas on old maps marked 'here be monsters' made real which i think might have made the show more like TOS than the TNG-lite series it became. Granted we did get some cool space monsters and races like the Vidiians, but for the most part there needed to be a lot more envelope pushing.

 

[Kane_Steel]

Odo was crucial to the end of the war, if it hadn't of been for him the Dominion would have fought to the last man. Surely there would need to be an explanation of why the war ended and some speculation on why the dominion is now less aggressive towards the federation.

So the show is set 30 years after the dominion war, probably the most destructive war the alpha quadrant has seen and you have a captain who fought the dominion and everyone has forgotten them? Do they not study history at starfleet academy anymore?

Why is using the dominion is necessary for tension between the two lead characters? New viewers apparently don't need to know the history behind the dominion and therefore you could use an entirely new culture, so why the unnecessary fanservice of using the dominion?

You're right it's all in the execution, and with an idea that is tantamount to fan-fiction filled with fanwankery, it would no doubt be awful.

Actually you're the one who's bringing on the fan-fiction fanwankery....

You're mentioning Odo was supposedly so crucial that he needs to be namedropped, yet new viewers wouldn't care less if he wasn't.. and it wouldn't impede the story.

Problem is, you have your fanboy goggles on when looking at this concept and feel like your prior knowledge of DS9 is critical to this follow-up and needs to be addressed, it does not.

The characters don't need to specifically reference or namedrop Odo, or any of the other Ds9 characters, nor do the particulars of the events of Ds9 and the war need to be addressed.

All we need to know is that a war happened between these two powers and it has led to the core antagonism between the lead characters at the start of the series. NEW audiences could easily get on board with that, without having any prior knowledge or attachment to Ds9.

In Star Wars, we all recognized a war happened a couple decades prior to A New Hope, but we really didn't need to see it or know of the specifics surrounding it to jump into Episode 4. However, the aftermath of that war was critical to the dynamics and development of several of the key characters. Audiences, though, could still easily start at Episode 4 without being lost. Even today, the prequels aren't necessary viewing in order to enjoy the core trilogy.

 

[Kane_Steel]

It has been done before, just on a smaller scale. Again, it doesn't mean that the dynamic is appropriate for Star Trek setting. Again, potential but not necessary the best way to start up a new show, or sustain a series. Again, a good one shot, but sustainable? No.

Well for those who defend Star Trek Discovery as 'quality,' mileage varies.

If the characters are layered, complex, engaging and developed, it is sustainable. More types of characters like Elim Garak, and less Michael Burnhams.

 

[Tuskin38]

I have also read that Fuller was initially trying to push for design which hewed a bit more closely to what was appropriate for the era, but the suits were opposed to it. Obviously once he was gone no one was going to complain.

Fuller was the one who decided to have familiar races redesigned though.

Well he was the one who first said it was going to happen, it’s possible it was someone else who made the decision and he had to follow it.

Also IIRC, the anthology idea was meant to follow a different crew each season, not the discovery

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Actually you're the one who's bringing on the fan-fiction fanwankery....

You're mentioning Odo was supposedly so crucial that he needs to be mentioned, yet new viewers wouldn't care less if he wasn't.. and it wouldn't impede the story.

Problem is, you have your fanboy goggles on when looking at this concept and feel like your prior knowledge of DS9 is critical to this follow-up and needs to be addressed, it does not.

The characters don't need to specifically reference or namedrop Odo, or any of the other Ds9 characters, nor do the particulars of the events of Ds9 and the war need to be addressed.

All we need to know is that a war happened between these two powers and it has led to the core antagonism between the lead characters at the start of the series. NEW audiences could easily get on board with that, without having any prior knowledge or attachment to Ds9.

Are you for real? You're the one insisting on using the Dominion, which is a fan favourite. If you're going to use an existing species and rely on a major event that was seen on screen as the premise of a series, it makes sense to provide some information about that event in order to world build for new viewers. The fact that the dominion war was an integral part of DS9 and one of the main characters effectively ended the war is part and parcel with that. The series is basically a sequel to the events of Deep Space Nine. But sure let's totally pretend that isn't case *wink*

I'm not wearing 'fanboy goggles' at all, I'm looking at it as a new viewer and you're right as a new viewer I don't care who the dominion is which then means that you could use any race in this scenario to the same effect. The use of the dominion just smells of fan service. My issue with your premise is that it's hypocritical to assertions that that trek needs fresh ideas and Discovery is filled with unoriginal concepts. Nothing about your idea is fresh, you can't even bother yourself to create a new species.

 

[Jayson1]

If a show shouldn't be set post Voyager where should it be set? Does it always have to be around "TOS" time? To me if you can come up with a story that it's time period isn't crucial to the concept then you can proably do it anywhere. I still think the future is actually the past but one that is no longer reliant on Canon being consitent. I'm talking about a Enterprise show set 100 years in our future. Maybe a Female Spock and a Mexican KIrk and young ensign Picard at helm and stuff like that. A remake more than a reboot. Though hopefully it will still have the spirit of what a Trek show should be like.

Jason

 

[Scargate]

Oh god. I'd put it out of my mind this show introduced a Spore drive run on mushrooms. Not having them jump into the future, a new universe, or exploding this tech away was another giant wtf moment last season.

 

[fireproof78]

If the characters are layered, complex, engaging and developed, it is sustainable. More types of characters like Elim Garak, and less Michael Burnhams

Then Discovery is good. I like Michael and Garak. It's not an either/or scenario.

 

[Firebird]

If a show shouldn't be set post Voyager where should it be set? Does it always have to be around "TOS" time? To me if you can come up with a story that it's time period isn't crucial to the concept then you can proably do it anywhere. I still think the future is actually the past but one that is no longer reliant on Canon being consitent. I'm talking about a Enterprise show set 100 years in our future. Maybe a Female Spock and a Mexican KIrk and young ensign Picard at helm and stuff like that. A remake more than a reboot. Though hopefully it will still have the spirit of what a Trek show should be like.

Jason

As the first draft of GR's original pitch for the series says:

The time is "Somewhere in the future." It could be 1995 or maybe even 2995. In other words, close enough to our own time for our continuing characters to be fully identifiable as people like us, but far enough into the future for galaxy travel to be thoroughly established (happily eliminating the need to encumber our stories with tiresome scientific explanation).

 

[Scargate]

Honestly, thinking more about it, if you're going to do a post VOY Trek show, the only, and I mean only, logical thing to do would be to set it exactly 17 years after the end - not in the far future. This is because the only thing that really makes this era more interesting than other ones in Trek history is you can (for at least the next 20 years or so) still have most of the casts of TNG, DS9, and VOY pop back in as their old characters. There's a strong character-based reason to explore this era, because we have these well-established people who - at minimum - it would be nice to check back in with. Stories flow from established characters more easily in a certain sense than from blank slates. But if you're not going to go down the fanwank/fanfic extranaganza route, there's really nothing in particular which makes the post-VOY setting any better than any other portion of Trek history. Trek doesn't need to have conflicts threatening the entire Federation - it can have small-bore plots where only the crew/cast are in danger, which means you don't really need to worry about broader continuity. Unless you almost totally fuck it up like DIS did by needlessly upping the ante.

We're not going to save the planet, the galaxy, or the universe. We're going to save... the multiverse!! When they basically said this, it was so disappointing. Telling a story that large with such far reaching consequences for failure meant ultimate success from the jump, for one, for another it never had to be such a large ante to begin with. A small story set in that time period in the lead up to TOS could've been amazing.

 

[Lord Garth]

I can't believe I'm about to say this -- I wouldn't if I didn't mean it -- but all of this is why it's a good idea for why the creators should do whatever they're going to do and live or die by it.

So many people have so many different ideas about what they'd do instead. Some of them I find interesting. Some of them I think are good ideas. Some of it I even agree with. But a lot of it is different people looking for different things. A lot of it's in different directions. A lot of diversity of opinion.

I've recorded local municipal government meetings and some of this, while interesting, reads like a Committee that's gone into overtime. All we're missing is "All in favor? And against?"

 

[Jayson1]

We're not going to save the planet, the galaxy, or the universe. We're going to save... the multiverse!! When they basically said this, it was so disappointing. Telling a story that large with such far reaching consequences for failure meant ultimate success from the jump, for one, for another it never had to be such a large ante to begin with. A small story set in that time period in the lead up to TOS could've been amazing.

Any new Trek show that start's off it's sales pitch with ,Saving, FIghting or Defending should be instantly tossed in the garbage bin because when used all 3 always end up being used, interchangable. If the sales pitch starts off with helping,exploring or studying then that might be a winner.

Jason

 

[fireproof78]

I can't believe I'm about to say this -- I wouldn't if I didn't mean it -- but all of this is why it's a good idea for why the creators should do whatever they're going to do and live or die by it.

So many people have so many different ideas about what they'd do instead. Some of them I find interesting. Some of them I think are good ideas. Some of it I even agree with. But a lot of it is different people looking for different things. A lot of it's in different directions. A lot of diversity of opinion.

I've recorded local municipal government meetings and some of this, while interesting, reads like a Committee that's gone into overtime. All we're missing is "All in favor? And against?"

Too good to pass up