Discovery Showrunners fired; Kurtzman takes over

[fireproof78]

Personally, I would have loved a series set about 30 years after the Dominion war, where the Federation and the Dominion are forced to work together after decades of no contact. The Dominion could be a mysterious regime that the current generation don't know much about. They could even be a proxy for North Korea. We could have a Starfleet Captain who is a veteran of the war, who still harbours a lot of hatred and prejudice towards them...and his first officer would be a Jem'Hadar. The Jem'Hadar commander would struggle between his genetic programming and conditioning....versus what he is becoming after interacting with those outside his race. The two men will have to put their differences aside and work together to unite both regimes.

Sounds interesting. Not certain it would fill a whole season though.

This is the curious aspect of Discovery. They decided to go with technology, time/multi universe travel, mycelial network, a spinning bouncing Starship in the wrong timeline. The tech and magic was there in the creators minds that clearly they wanted to use, so arguments post Voyager was dried up vision don't convince. They put way too advanced concepts in a pre-Tos era.

Precisely so. I don't see the technology in a post-Voy series being less magical than what has been put in Discovery so far.

This is where I point out they had a ready made set up for a new series with the story of the Enterprise J exploring new galaxies.

Sure, and a new galaxy is a great place to start. I'm not saying there is not potential. Just that it requires a lot of work.

 

[Kane_Steel]

I don't agree. Post Voyager opens a wealth of imagination. Discovery is limited to a ten year 'gotcha'. Even Enterprise had more scope.

Less than 10 years. Kirk's Enterprise adventures should begin in about 7.

The scope is further messed up by the fact that we already saw The Cage. We're bound to get some glaring inconsistencies when the Enterprise appears on STD.

 

[eschaton]

And the Kelvin movies weren't?

The Kelvin movies were made to make money. Of course, everything in Hollywood is just done to make money. But ST09 - even if it was a pretty good film - was a fairly brainless action-adventure flick, purposefully constructed to appeal to the nostalgia of Trekkies, yet not be so nerdy as to be unappealing to the general viewing public. They didn't come up with some awesome untold story of Kirk & co and decide to revive the franchise. They decided to revive the franchise, and then had to figure out what story they wanted to tell.

Now, if the Tarantino Trek film turns out to be any good (and actually comes into being) that will be what he was talking about - starting with the concept, rather than the target demographic. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[eschaton]

This is the curious aspect of Discovery. They decided to go with technology, time/multi universe travel, mycelial network, a spinning bouncing Starship in the wrong timeline. The tech and magic was there in the creators minds that clearly they wanted to use, so arguments post Voyager was dried up vision don't convince. They put way too advanced concepts in a pre-Tos era.

AFAIK the only reason why the show was a prequel is because Fuller's original vision - the anthology - was supposed to start during this period. Discovery was supposed to fall through some sort of time anomaly and either come out post-VOY or in-between TOS and TNG, which is where the second season started. I wouldn't be surprised if CBS pushed the whole "Spock's sister" thing as well, although I can see Fuller liking the "bicultural" aspect more broadly.

I have also read that Fuller was initially trying to push for design which hewed a bit more closely to what was appropriate for the era, but the suits were opposed to it. Obviously once he was gone no one was going to complain.

This is where I point out they had a ready made set up for a new series with the story of the Enterprise J exploring new galaxies.

Ugh no. Voyager proved that a change of venue matters little if you don't have new ideas. Unless they're willing to go places Trek hasn't gone (posthumans, super-intelligent AI, people inhabiting virtual worlds, etc) I don't see the point of doing far-future Trek.

 

[Lord Garth]

AFAIK the only reason why the show was a prequel is because Fuller's original vision - the anthology - was supposed to start during this period. Discovery was supposed to fall through some sort of time anomaly and either come out post-VOY or in-between TOS and TNG, which is where the second season started.

As much as I like the series we have, this is what I was really looking forward to, and hope they still keep even if not in anthology form. Given the harsh resistance to the 24th and 25th Centuries I'm seeing here... I think jumping ahead to them is exactly what Discovery should do (via spore drive).

Between the people who don't want prequels and the people who don't want Star Trek to move forward in time at all, it would be the first Star Trek series that's equally offensive to all.

 

[fireproof78]

Ugh no. Voyager proved that a change of venue matters little if you don't have new ideas. Unless they're willing to go places Trek hasn't gone (posthumans, super-intelligent AI, people inhabiting virtual worlds, etc) I don't see the point of doing far-future Trek.

This.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I don't agree. Post Voyager opens a wealth of imagination. Discovery is limited to a ten year 'gotcha'. Even Enterprise had more scope.

Technology either stagnates or becomes more magical and problems are solved through magic tech or time travel.

Is there possibility? Of course. But, it requires some imagination of what to do with technology so it isn't so magical.

I think you both make solid points.

Things like the Spore drive would probably be more acceptable to people if the series was set post-voyager. And a future series would basically be more 'open world' and less tied to canon. At the same time a Post-Voy series is dependent on how far into the future you go. The episode 'Relativity' showed why setting a series too far into the future can be problematic. I absolutely love Relativity as an episode but the technology on display in the 29th century was practically magic. Even a series set 50 - 100 years after Voyager runs into these problems and it's harder to explain away any technological stagnation. If you go for reasons like a war or a natural disaster to explain why the Federation hasn't developed or no longer has certain technologies, you might as well just set the series in the past.

With a prequel you're tied down a lot more because of the almighty canon. Naturally, as the galaxy is a big place, there is still room for encountering new worlds and new civilisations. But it needs to be done right. Enterprise, started as a prequel and then became the diet coke version of the 24th century, because the writers had become depended on 24th century technology to tell stories. That's why we got phasers, photon torpedoes, shields and transporters by the end of the first season. Prequel series are really dependent on the writers embracing the fact their series is set in the past and working within those confines.

 

[eschaton]

As much as I like the series we have, this is what I was really looking forward to, and hope they still keep even if not in anthology form. Given the harsh resistance to the 24th and 25th Centuries I'm seeing here... I think jumping ahead to them is exactly what Discovery should do (via spore drive).

Between the people who don't want prequels and the people who don't want Star Trek to move forward in time at all, it would be the first Star Trek series that's equally offensive to all.

The spore drive is a fucking time machine (along with a way to travel to parallel universes). Not actually exploring it isn't like leaving Chekhov's gun on the mantel, it's opening up the door to an entire arsenal in the back room, and never speaking of it again.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Personally, I would have loved a series set about 30 years after the Dominion war, where the Federation and the Dominion are forced to work together after decades of no contact. The Dominion could be a mysterious regime that the current generation don't know much about. They could even be a proxy for North Korea. We could have a Starfleet Captain who is a veteran of the war, who still harbours a lot of hatred and prejudice towards them...and his first officer would be a Jem'Hadar. The Jem'Hadar commander would struggle between his genetic programming and conditioning....versus what he is becoming after interacting with those outside his race. The two men will have to put their differences aside and work together to unite both regimes.

No, just no. What you have described is basically what every bit of Trek fan fiction has been for the last 20 years. Can I assume that the hero ship would be the USS Fanwank armed with 15 photon torpedo tubes and a wings of fighter shuttles? You said in a previous comment that you think Trek needs fresh ideas and new fanbase. How exactly is creating a plot line that requires someone to have watched DS9 going to encouraging new fans and how exactly is using the dominion as villains a fresh idea?

 

[fireproof78]

The spore drive is a fucking time machine (along with a way to travel to parallel universes). Not actually exploring it isn't like leaving Chekhov's gun on the mantel, it's opening up the door to an entire arsenal in the back room, and never speaking of it again.

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We have ways.

 

[Kane_Steel]

Sounds interesting. Not certain it would fill a whole season though.

I see it as a Western in space. You have the older Captain set in his ways (the classic John Wayne Cowboy) with his vivid memories of the war. A war which the current generation doesn't remember. He no longer has much of a place in the post-war landscape.

A young Jem-Hadar commander, facing his own struggles of identity (nature VS nuture).

If the characters are strong, you'd be invested in the series.

This would be a different Federation than we've seen before. More relaxed. More broken. Perhaps on the verge of collapse. Picard-esque diplomats are an ideal of the past, an echelon that the Federation needs to work towards again.

Both the Federation and the Dominion would be working together to combat a mutual threat, similar to how they teamed up to take down the gateways in DS9. A lot of the series can take place in the largely unexplored Gamma Quadrant.

 

[gottacook]

Between this thread and the one concerning possible future Abramsverse movies, I've seen good arguments that NONE of the three periods - circa-Discovery prequel, Kirk-and-Spock, or post-Voyager - can possibly constitute a setting for stories that aren't fatally redundant with (or in fatal conflict with, depending on your point of view) what's already been filmed over the past 50+ years. If all these arguments are correct, then perhaps Star Trek has simply run its course. And in fact they may all be correct.

 

[eschaton]

Honestly, thinking more about it, if you're going to do a post VOY Trek show, the only, and I mean only, logical thing to do would be to set it exactly 17 years after the end - not in the far future. This is because the only thing that really makes this era more interesting than other ones in Trek history is you can (for at least the next 20 years or so) still have most of the casts of TNG, DS9, and VOY pop back in as their old characters. There's a strong character-based reason to explore this era, because we have these well-established people who - at minimum - it would be nice to check back in with. Stories flow from established characters more easily in a certain sense than from blank slates. But if you're not going to go down the fanwank/fanfic extranaganza route, there's really nothing in particular which makes the post-VOY setting any better than any other portion of Trek history. Trek doesn't need to have conflicts threatening the entire Federation - it can have small-bore plots where only the crew/cast are in danger, which means you don't really need to worry about broader continuity. Unless you almost totally fuck it up like DIS did by needlessly upping the ante.

 

[Kane_Steel]

No, just no. What you have described is basically what every bit of Trek fan fiction has been for the last 20 years. Can I assume that the hero ship would be the USS Fanwank armed with 15 photon torpedo tubes and a wings of fighter shuttles? You said in a previous comment that you think Trek needs fresh ideas and new fanbase. How exactly is creating a plot line that requires someone to have watched DS9 going to encouraging new fans and how exactly is using the dominion as villains a fresh idea?

I've already discussed completely fresh ideas in previous posts. This one is different. But it doesn't require any beforehand knowledge of DS9 at all.

If you are reintroducing the Dominion decades later (not as villains) and they are a mystery to those in the world of the series, they can be a mystery to the audiences as well. You shouldn't need any previously knowledge of Trek to grasp this concept.

All audiences need to know is a war happened between these two superpowers decades ago, which they can learn from the new show itself.

 

[fireproof78]

I see it as a Western in space. You have the older Captain set in his ways (the classic John Wayne Cowboy) with his vivid memories of the war. A war which the current generation doesn't remember. He no longer has much of a place in the post-war landscape.

Been done and doesn't feel consistent with the Star Trek ethos, espeically of the time period. Certainly, I would be invested in characters if they are well done. Doesn't make it a Star Trek story I want to see.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Between this thread and the one concerning possible future Abramsverse movies, I've seen good arguments that NONE of the three periods - circa-Discovery prequel, Kirk-and-Spock, or post-Voyager - can possibly constitute a setting for stories that aren't fatally redundant with (or in fatal conflict with, depending on your point of view) what's already been filmed over the past 50+ years. If all these arguments are correct, then perhaps Star Trek has simply run its course. And in fact they may all be correct.

Once the people in charge finally decide to drop the pretense and need to pander and realize canon doesn't matter and "future time" is completely arbitrary, these 'problems' will solve themselves.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I've already discussed completely fresh ideas in previous posts. This one is different. But it doesn't require any beforehand knowledge of DS9 at all.

If you are reintroducing the Dominion decades later (not as villains) and they are a mystery to those in the world of the series, they can be a mystery to the audiences as well. You shouldn't need any previously knowledge of Trek to grasp this concept.

All audiences need to know is a war happened between these two superpowers decades ago, which they can learn from the new show itself.

Except in this scenario, the dominion can be interchanged with an entirely new race, so why use them if not for nostalgia and fanwank? And yes it would need some explanation of events from Deep Space Nine, especially if the characters in this universe consider the dominion to be a 'mystery'.. That mystery would need to explained would it not? Like for example how Odo may have changed the culture of the dominion to become less antagonistic. Should something that important be relegated to a throw away line? For that matter, you then need to explain to the new audience who Odo is, how he formed his progressive position on solids, which would require an explanation of his time on Deep Space Nine.

A lot of the arguments you make for why this series would work sound a lot like things you would bitch about if discovery tried it.

 

[Mudd]

This is where I point out they had a ready made set up for a new series with the story of the Enterprise J exploring new galaxies.

The what doing what?

You just described a generic repetition of most of the other Trek series.

Other galaxies are not one bit different from "our" galaxy as far as the stories to be told there.

 

[eschaton]

Other galaxies are not one bit different from "our" galaxy as far as the stories to be told there.

Yup. As I said, VOY proved this. They went to the Delta Quadrant, and it was full of the same boring humanoid aliens that the Alpha/Beta/Gamma quadrants were. The only difference was the Borg, but even they got boring after awhile, because they worked better as visceral body horror than a race. Honestly, having the Delta Quadrant full of the same stuff made sense though. I recall reading someone (I think on this forum) argue that they should have had it a very alien place full of wonders, but there's no reason to think just because it's far from Earth that it would be that different from local space.

A lot of what makes Trek a bit stale as a concept - and why a smart reboot wouldn't be bad - is how unalien alien races are. Due to historic budgetary constraints, they have almost always been shown as humanoid. But what's worse is they are inexplicably almost always within a few hundred years of the Federation in terms of development - unless they're some godlike energy beings. If you're just going to repeatedly tell stories about aliens who are basically human - who have tech pretty much indistinguishable from the Federation, and a culture which is less alien than a lot of human cultures are today - just have them be splinter colonies of humans or something.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I recall reading someone (I think on this forum) argue that they should have had it a very alien place full of wonders, but there's no reason to think just because it's far from Earth that it would be that different from local space.

I think this may have been me. The Delta Quadrant should have been weird if only to make it stand out from the series that came before it.