Spoilers Legion season 2

[Jayson1]

I just think the term irredeemable just means something different in real life as opposed to fiction. I'm not sure it's a term that really works in fiction because it's really just about narrative and understanding a character's point of view. I think the only reason why Syd's actions seem's easier to overlook has less to do about the subject matter but more about how that episode was simply a better episode and a better written scene. We understand her point-of-view a little better than David's at this point in time. We know he has a severe mental health issue and he has also been a product of abuse by the Shadow King as well. The reason's for his actions sort of make sense but they didn't fully convey the reason why he felt his actions were okay at that moment. Some of that I think is because the show's weirdness at times does conflict with emotional exploration.
As for people not liking it or being okay with it is not just about listening to people. Of course people should listen, especially when it comes to real life issues. To me this feels more like the age old debate when it comes to drama and comedy and that is the question. Is somethings taboo and you can't explore them or make jokes about something when it comes to humor or drama? It always comes down basically to some people saying that yes you can't do some stories or some jokes. Then others feel everything is fair game. Context means everything. I don't see it as a moral issue but simply having a difference of opinion on the question.

Jason

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I stumbled on this again and it seems it could be pertinent now with what we've seen:

And now we must speak of Zhuang Zhou,
who fell asleep one day and dreamed he was a butterfly.

For hours, he fluttered in the warm winter sun,
until he no longer remembered he was Zhuang Zhou.

Suddenly he awoke, and he was Zhuang Zhou again.
But in that moment, he didn't know.

Was he Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly,
or a butterfly who was dreaming he was Zhuang Zhou?

I took it as Farouk telling Syd the truth that David had erased from her mind. (And it was a mouse, not a rat. Rats are bigger.)

hmm, maybe, but all season we've seen delusion passed as a whisper so the scene didn't come across as above board to me

 

[Snaploud]

The law generally sees a difference between the two in terms of their expected ability to understand and take responsibility for their actions. That's why juveniles aren't subject to penalties as harsh as adults for equivalent crimes.

Correction: I looked online, and the Legion wiki says she was 16 during the incident in question. The age of consent is 16 in a lot of U.S. states. I think she is culpable. Maybe I would judge her a bit less harshly if I knew she came clean and got the guy out of jail in a couple years. We don't really know what happened later.

Regardless, they're both guilty of rape, IMO. Sydney shouldn't get any more of a pass than David.

 

[Jayson1]

Correction: I looked online, and the Legion wiki says was 16 during the incident in question. The age of consent is 16 in a lot of U.S. states. I think she is culpable. Maybe I would judge her a bit less harshly if I knew she came clean and got the guy out of jail in a couple years. We don't really know what happened later.

Regardless, they're both guilty of rape, IMO. Sydney shouldn't get any more of a pass than David.

It's like how people get away with murder alot in tv shows. "Arrow" being the one that first comes to mind at this moment. Getting a pass is simply about any future good deeds and whether they feel guilty or not or suffer any kind of emotional penalty for their actions. David becoming evil is actually a penalty is one such penalty because it means he wasn't the hero he thought he was. Coming to terms with what he did to someone he loved will be the next one. I'm not sure what Syd's character arc will be moving forward. Overcoming David seems like one place to go. At somepoint if she becomes a kind of leader then her old baggage such as her own immoral action will no doubt factor in as well. I see them both being very conflicted on what is right or wrong and to me that of course is a good thing. Neither one should see themselves as a "hero" but that doesn't mean they can't try and makeup for their past behavior.

Jason

 

[Snaploud]

Let's also keep in mind that Sydney just committed attempted murder based upon David potentially committing crimes in the future. Granted, she was worried about the fate of humanity, but it's still attempted murder and justified based upon what David might do in the future.

So, Sydney has committed rape, attempted murder, and got an innocent man's life destroyed. She also told an Omega-level mutant with multiple personalities and a tenuous connection with reality that his true face is a monster and that he deserves to die. Yeah, I'd say she's about on par with anything David has done so far.

 

[Christopher]

Regardless, they're both guilty of rape, IMO. Sydney shouldn't get any more of a pass than David.

Once more, neither character actually exists, so that question is irrelevant. If a hand puppet insulted you or told your kid an obscene joke, would you blame the puppet or the puppeteer? This is about the people who actually do exist, the writers on the one hand and the audience on the other, and the impact of the former's storytelling choices on the latter.

Using rape as a plot device is a minefield, because a lot of people in the audience have actually been through it and it's a post-traumatic stress trigger for many of them. So you have to be very, very careful in how you use it, and historically it's a device that's often been used very insensitively in fiction because the industry has been so dominated by male writers.

 

[crookeddy]

Once more, neither character actually exists, so that question is irrelevant. If a hand puppet insulted you or told your kid an obscene joke, would you blame the puppet or the puppeteer? This is about the people who actually do exist, the writers on the one hand and the audience on the other, and the impact of the former's storytelling choices on the latter.

Using rape as a plot device is a minefield, because a lot of people in the audience have actually been through it and it's a post-traumatic stress trigger for many of them. So you have to be very, very careful in how you use it, and historically it's a device that's often been used very insensitively in fiction because the industry has been so dominated by male writers.

Chris the censor returns.

 

[Snaploud]

Once more, neither character actually exists, so that question is irrelevant. If a hand puppet insulted you or told your kid an obscene joke, would you blame the puppet or the puppeteer? This is about the people who actually do exist, the writers on the one hand and the audience on the other, and the impact of the former's storytelling choices on the latter.

Using rape as a plot device is a minefield, because a lot of people in the audience have actually been through it and it's a post-traumatic stress trigger for many of them. So you have to be very, very careful in how you use it, and historically it's a device that's often been used very insensitively in fiction because the industry has been so dominated by male writers.

You called David irredeamable for commiting rape. I'm not sure how my judgment of Sydney is any different than your judgment of David.

 

[crookeddy]

Legion isn't the most entertaining series (IMO) but it's very important to some. Just look at the Youtube comments for this video:

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[Jayson1]

Once more, neither character actually exists, so that question is irrelevant. If a hand puppet insulted you or told your kid an obscene joke, would you blame the puppet or the puppeteer? This is about the people who actually do exist, the writers on the one hand and the audience on the other, and the impact of the former's storytelling choices on the latter.

Using rape as a plot device is a minefield, because a lot of people in the audience have actually been through it and it's a post-traumatic stress trigger for many of them. So you have to be very, very careful in how you use it, and historically it's a device that's often been used very insensitively in fiction because the industry has been so dominated by male writers.

But do you think that is the case here? I know a prime example of what your talking about and it's always bothered me. That was Wade Wells basically being sent to a rape camp on "Sliders" because they producer thought it would be a funny way to get back at the actress I think for not coming back for season 4 when they were going to do the show on the Sci-F channel. This doesn't feel like it's even close to the case with "Legion." Even if they try and redeem him on some level it's not just going to be some simple hand wave of the situations. Most great drama's don't do the hand wave stuff or if they do it's a kind of rare thing.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

You called David irredeamable for commiting rape.

Not in the sense that he's an actual person, because I'm not delusional. In the sense that it's a storytelling choice that makes it questionable whether many viewers would ever accept an attempt to give his character a redemption arc. It's not about his morality per se, it's about the idea of redeeming a rapist as a plot point and a thematic device. Either he's going to be permanently a villain from now on, which would be unexpected as a narrative choice but still achieved in a way that maybe wasn't necessary, or they may fall into the all-too-common trap of trying to create sympathy for the rapist, which plays right into the blame-the-victim mentality that allows so many rapists to get away with it (like all the reporting about that college athlete convicted of rape a while back, which was more preoccupied with how the conviction and the ridiculously brief prison sentence would hurt his career than how the actual rape would affect the victim for the rest of her life). Or they may try to handwave it away as something Farouk did and David was blameless for, which might have the effect of trivializing it. There are ways that this could be taken in an unfortunate story direction, could perpetuate unhealthy and misogynistic cliches. The one apparent way to avoid that is to make David a villain from now on and make no attempt to redeem him, and that would be an odd and perhaps limiting direction to take.

But do you think that is the case here?

It's not just about what I think. It's about being aware of how the larger audience reacts to a thing. There are a lot of critics out there saying that the season finale crossed a line they can't come back from. Admittedly, I didn't even think about how disturbing the sex scene was when I saw it -- it wasn't until Syd spelled it out for David that the ramifications sank in. So I'm not an infallible arbiter here. I have blind spots. And because I recognize that, I listen to what other people have to say and weigh it in my decisions. Reading the criticisms of this episode from multiple voices, I recognized that they had a valid point that I hadn't considered myself.

This doesn't feel like it's even close to the case with "Legion." Even if they try and redeem him on some level it's not just going to be some simple hand wave of the situations. Most great drama's don't do the hand wave stuff or if they do it's a kind of rare thing.

Except this whole season has had problematical aspects with how it handles female characters and their agency and sexuality. So the question is whether Hawley can really be trusted to thread that needle in a sensitive and satisfactory way.

I don't think this is a "great drama" anymore, if it ever was. It's all style and not much substance, or at least not very consistent substance. Great dramas are about characters, and Legion has had two years to develop its characters and yet has done a fairly shallow job with a number of them. It's too much in love with its own cleverness. The real star of the show is its technique, which is more interesting to its makers than the actual characters and storylines are.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Once more, neither character actually exists, so that question is irrelevant. If a hand puppet insulted you or told your kid an obscene joke, would you blame the puppet or the puppeteer?

I wouldn't blame either because they don't exist.

 

[crookeddy]

Is it at all relevant that the show was kind of careful to say that David didn't ACTUALLY have sex with her? It was actually mental sex. Should there be a difference?

 

[Jayson1]

Even if David is a villian he is still going to be made sympathetic on some level. You don't want to turn him into a one-note bad guy either. Remember even villians usually she themselves as hero's of their own story and they are often given valid reasons to sort of explain why they are the way the are. It feels like your saying that just giving him any moral complexity is the same as condoning his actions.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

Is it at all relevant that the show was kind of careful to say that David didn't ACTUALLY have sex with her? It was actually mental sex. Should there be a difference?

Not in the real world and not just because mental sex isn't a real thing. In fiction it's kind of on that line of where it's okay to kill aliens more than it is to kill humans. "Stargate" would kill Jaffa by the truckload but they were very careful when it came to human on human murder. I can see them using this not as a way to do a hand wave but it can be used as means of making him more tolerable to the audience. Sci-FI stuff doesn't always impact viewers in the same way when it's done in a more realistic manner. It's why this case of abuse will never be seen on the level of what you saw on that HBO show "The Duece."

Jason

 

[Christopher]

I wouldn't blame either because they don't exist.

What?? Puppeteers don't exist? So do you think Jim Henson was a collective hallucination?

Even if David is a villian he is still going to be made sympathetic on some level.

Which is exactly why it might have been a bad idea to make him a rapist.

It feels like your saying that just giving him any moral complexity is the same as condoning his actions.

No, I'm saying that it's ignorant and insensitive to think that rape can be treated as casually as any other plot device. There are important gender issues involved here that are being widely discussed and acknowledged on numerous SF review sites but that the people on this board are bizarrely clueless about.

https://www.tor.com/2018/06/13/about-that-legion-season-two-finale/
https://tv.avclub.com/with-its-shocking-season-finale-legion-makes-a-painful-1826761690
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-legion-finale-was-beautiful-and-disgusting-1826792789
https://scifibulletin.com/us-tv/legion-review-season-2-episode-11-chapter-19/

 

[Jayson1]

What?? Puppeteers don't exist? So do you think Jim Henson was a collective hallucination?




Which is exactly why it might have been a bad idea to make him a rapist.




No, I'm saying that it's ignorant and insensitive to think that rape can be treated as casually as any other plot device. There are important gender issues involved here that are being widely discussed and acknowledged on numerous SF review sites but that the people on this board are bizarrely clueless about.

How was it treated as casual? That was the turning point in him becoming a villian? Not only that but it was with the women he loves. He has been through alot from mental illness and the Shadow King who infected his mind to having his sister be killed yet that is what broke him and and made him stop seeing himself as a hero. As for him being sympathy it's kind of early to see what angle they will go with the character but like I said sympathy is not always connected to behavior. If it was people would never be able to forgive anyone over anything. Just having empathy for a human being because they are a fellow human being does not seem strange to me, especially if they try and make up for their sins. It's clearly more easy when dealing with a fictional person than a real person but I think you can have a huge mix of emotions towards any human being. Even Donald Trump being caught in a bear trap and crying out in pain would make someone feel kind of bad and he is a real human monster. That doesn't mean you forgive him or your going to stop hating him. It just means you feel this other emotion as well.

Jason

 

[Shawnster]

Is the music available anywhere? What an incredible soundtrack.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Is the music available anywhere? What an incredible soundtrack.

The season one score is already out. Hopefully they plan to release the second season, especially since it has a number of original covers by Noah Hawley and Dan Stevens.

 

[Jayson1]

What are everyone's favorite moments from the season my top 10 would be:

1 The Dance Battle in the season opener.

2 The mind battle to "Behind Blue Eyes" in the last episode.

3 The John Hamm, voice overs

4 The scene were young Syd takes over her mom's body and has sex with her boyfriend. Like I said above that scene might be one of the few shock moments all year on tv for me. I recall saying out loud "Oh no" as soon as I picked up where the scene was proably heading.

5 The entire alternate timeline universe's episode.

6 The Faurk and Oliver scenes out in the desert.

7 Oliver and Jean Smart in the Ice Cube in the last episode.

8 David's sister being brutally murdered. Another shocking moment that floored me.

9 The Oliver, Lenny attack on the headquarters where it's done to music and it's like they are gliding more than walking.

10 Carry being stuck halfway inside of Kerry and having to pull him out.

Jason