Kathleen Kennedy Damaging Star Wars....?

[Awesome Possum]

None of the other movies had a plan. Except for the prequels, which was pretty much just to get Anakin into the Darth Vader suit. Lucas liked to claim he had a nine movie plan, but that was bullshit. The various story ideas and script revisions during the original trilogy are proof of that.

 

[thribs]

You got something new in TLJ, it goes in a few new directions. But that didn't make you happy. I don't think fans even know what they want.

We did?

 

[Awesome Possum]

I read the old EU books, the idea of war profiteers was pretty new. It's not Jedi vs Sith, Republic vs Separatists, Rebels vs Empire, Resistance vs First Order. Star Wars is just the same shit over and over with a few minor details changed. The Canto plot at least opens up the possibility of something bigger than this endless cycle. Taking on that could end the war and prevent it in the future.

 

[Trekkin]

Gee, if only there was a producer working on all of these movies whose job was to make sure that they all fit together.

Why would a producer be doing that? Do they not have enough responsibilities already?

And the Star Wars movies do ‘fit together.’ I may have issues with how series like, say...Marvel, have huge problems with characterisation over their series. But saying the movies don’t ‘fit together’ is a stretch.

Hell, there’s a ton of clashing elements and dashed plot points within the OT as well. But it’s be stupid to claim it doesn’t ‘fit together’ as a trilogy.

 

[Tuskin38]

Man Luke was really screwed over in these new movies. He’s supposed to be the Grandmaster

Yes he was, and that’s a good thing. It shows character growth, makes him human, relatable.

We did?

Yes we did.

 

[EnsignRicky]

I don't think fans even know what they want.

With Star Wars trying to be Star Trek and Star Trek trying to be Star Wars, I don't think anybody knows what the fans want.

 

[Jayson1]

I have a question. How does everyone think the action-adventure aspects on "The Last Jedi" were? If the movie doesn't work on that level for people then doesn't that negate any of the more character oriented stuff? Does anything in the movie rival the attack on the first Death Star or the Walking Machine things that I don't know what they are called on Hoth? I think people understimate the movie's failure at 2 of it's 3 big action set pieces. The Casino Raid and the Space Chase seem to not be liked by many. Luke standing up to the whole army basically by himself is the one action moment that does land and compares favorably to the old movies. If you find the characters kind of boring compared to the classic movies then I think that will influence people's views on the movie. I think people do like to see character stuff but the characters have to be interesting enough for you to care about that character stuff. Doesn't it simply compare down for many that people just aren't into the new characters like the old ones for the most part and the action stuff, while having top notch effects just doesn't compare to what people to expect in a Star Wars movie. Even sexist and racist which we know are part of the problem have the ability to look beyond that stuff in fiction . Unless someone is going to tell me that not one sexist person in the past have liked characters like Ripley,Sarah Connor,Buffy etc. If Rey had been as interesting as those characters then I am sure much of the negativity would be lessoned. I think it really does come down to the action and characters for most people. Only the more troll types focus on SJW type of fake drama as been why they don't like the movie. Plus we are talking about Star Wars here. The fandom is so huge that many of the fans aren't even people who like other genre stuff. Star Wars isn't just some hidden jewel only we nerds know about. It means Joe the Mechanic who doesn't give a dam about Sci-Fi but does love Star Wars also makes up the fandom for this franchise which means that when fans complain it isn't just the more nerdy types like must of us. It's the average person as well. So does this mean that negativity might not be so small like we think? Perhaps the outrage isn't just limited to small section of fanboys but is even bigger than that.


Jason

 

[Campe]

I thought the opening space battle and the battle on Crait at the end worked extremely well. Canto Bight was fine as well but didn’t hit as well as the other two. I don’t think the idea of the slow space chase was one that was supposed to be all that riveting so I don’t really count it.

 

[Trekkin]

I have a question. How does everyone think the action-adventure aspects on "The Last Jedi" were? If the movie doesn't work on that level for people then doesn't that negate any of the more character oriented stuff? Does anything in the movie rival the attack on the first Death Star or the Walking Machine things that I don't know what they are called on Hoth? I think people understimate the movie's failure at 2 of it's 3 big action set pieces. The Casino Raid and the Space Chase seem to not be liked by many.

Apparently Rey and Kylo fighting Snoke’s guards, Finn/Rose/BB8 vs Phasma, the entire opening sequence, Rey and Kylo fighting each other, Rey’s fight with Luke, and Rey/Chewie dogfighting the FO, didn’t happen.

And how the fuck are we supposed to know if it will ‘rival’ anything from SW and ESB? Besides the obvious biases involved in this sort of thing, that shit is so engrained in pop culture that you’re not going to get anything resembling an objective answer from either side. Ask again in 30 years.

 

[Set Harth]

And the Star Wars movies do ‘fit together.’ I may have issues with how series like, say...Marvel, have huge problems with characterisation over their series.

If anything the MCU seems like the model for stuff being planned out in advance and fitting together, at least plot-wise. When you compare that to what Fox and WB are doing... yikes.

 

[Trekkin]

Yeah. That’s why the ending of Thor totally doesn’t need a hasty ‘heard and not seen’ deus ex machina to undo nearly everything that happened in it, just to get everyone in place for Avengers,

And practically the exact same thing totally didn’t happen to Iron Man 3, in order to ensure the Iron Man suit would be flying around in Avengers 2.

(They’re also on record as having no set plan for quiet a while.)

What in Star Wars doesn’t ‘match up?’ And I don’t mean ‘resolved in a way I don’t like,’ I mean ‘goes the way of Luke’s explicitly unfinished Jedi training lessons in ROTJ.’

 

[Set Harth]

And practically the exact same thing totally didn’t happen to Iron Man 3, in order to ensure the Iron Man suit would be flying around in Avengers 2.

What thing "happened" to Iron Man 3, other than people getting the wrong idea like it was their job? Anyone who thought there wouldn't be an Iron Man armor in Avengers 2 was seriously misguided. You must have equally thought Tony Stark not being recommended for the Avengers Initiative in Iron Man 2 was a serious indication of where things were going. But then he was in Avengers 1 after all! What a swerve! Who's running this circus?

(They’re also on record as having no set plan for quiet a while.)

When was this? Sometime before 2011? Everything's been very obviously heading toward a set endpoint ( or endgame, if you will ) for quite some time now.

 

[Kemaiku]

They didn't decide on Thanos and the stones until sometime into 2011, after Thor. The Infinity Guantlet injoke becomes a error, as was Loki working on his own and mind controlling Selvig already, destroying the Bifrost with no real plan on how to get him to Earth etc

Even hinting at Mistress Death in Avengers, only to retcon his universal rebalancing sometime after that.

The "plan" was tacked on later, wobbled around a bit, and sort of finally tied it together in Infinity War, but barely.

 

[fireproof78]

Why would a producer be doing that? Do they not have enough responsibilities already?

And the Star Wars movies do ‘fit together.’ I may have issues with how series like, say...Marvel, have huge problems with characterisation over their series. But saying the movies don’t ‘fit together’ is a stretch.

Hell, there’s a ton of clashing elements and dashed plot points within the OT as well. But it’s be stupid to claim it doesn’t ‘fit together’ as a trilogy.

I think the larger theme of "finding my place" is undergirding much of the Disney Star Wars era. And, for me, it works very well. It isn't just Rey and Finn and Poe, but Solo and Jyn who are trying to find that "best destiny" that fits them for where they want to belong in the galaxy.

Also, these new chapters feel larger to me in terms of showcasing more of the galaxy.

 

[thribs]

Yes he was, and that’s a good thing. It shows character growth, makes him human, relatable.



Yes we did.

LoL!

 

[UssGlenn]

I see what the logic was over at Disney. they knew the original trilogy was mostly written by the seat of the pants, and they were trying to avoid over planning, and sucking all the life out of the movies. So they had the great idea to be hands off and trust the vision of some talented young directors. Unfortunately the resulting movies don't feel like a cohesive story. There clearly needs to be a guiding hand with a vision above the directors to keep things together. that was Lucas for 1-6. Should have been J.J. but he wasn't involved with 8. we will see if he can tie everything together.

 

[Trekkin]

What thing "happened" to Iron Man 3, other than people getting the wrong idea like it was their job?

...what?

You must have equally thought Tony Stark not being recommended for the Avengers Initiative in Iron Man 2 was a serious indication of where things were going. But then he was in Avengers 1 after all! What a swerve! Who's running this circus?

It was an indication of where things were going.

As was Tony’s conversation with Thunderbolt in Incredible Hulk on behalf of SHIELD.

As was Cap’s half-built shield being amongst Howard’s shit.

Whilst Tony was obviously always going to be in Avengers, his role was pretty clearly intended to be different from what we ended up getting. Marvel (or more than likely, successive writers and directors) simply changed their minds a few times.

Which isn’t a big deal to me. These things happen. But apparently for some people, these ‘puzzle pieces’ going together even slightly uncomfortably is ‘make or break’ for ‘successful’ series.

When was this? Sometime before 2011? Everything's been very obviously heading toward a set endpoint ( or endgame, if you will ) for quite some time now.

Who remembers the Infinity Gauntlet sitting near fully formed in Odin’s vault during Thor? Sitting damn near the centre of frame in several scenes, just to ensure comic fans would see it?

Hela does.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Who remembers the Infinity Gauntlet sitting near fully formed in Odin’s vault during Thor? Sitting damn near the centre of frame in several scenes, just to ensure comic fans would see it?

Hela does.

Apologies for not following the total thread of what you're talking about, but in Thor 3:

Spoiler

In the vault, Hela knocks it over calling it a fake.

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CC remembers that!

 

[Trekkin]

I know. I pointed out they tend to pretty hamfistedly (heh) retcon stuff that no longer fits the ‘totally not being rewritten on the fly’ plan.

Although I saw Thor 3 not long ago, and completely forgot how much bigger the prop suddenly was in that movie. Look how tiny Cate is next to it! It’s the size of her torso.

Actually, Thor 3 did one retcon particularly well. Asgard being subjugating, conquering, Empire-builders, was probably an unintentional subtext in the first two movies.

Mostly because of a translation issue from the comics (which is pretty similar, but already canonically had Odin’s and Asgard’s benevolence be a bit...iffy), and just the typical issues in high fantasy settings (the main characters race is apparently are good and runs the world, yet are constantly warring with every other race. Who are typically flatly ‘evil’, othered, and hate the main guys guts for no particular reason.)

Deciding to lean into the ‘problematic’ subtext and tackle it head on, was a really good idea. Captain America did the same thing with SHIELD...sort of.

And oh boy. Isn’t the formation of SHIELD a bit of a continuity minefield in these movies. They had to do some EU heavy lifting to fix that one.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I know. I pointed out they tend to pretty hamfistedly (heh) retcon stuff that no longer fits the ‘totally not being rewritten on the fly’ plan.

Although I saw Thor 3 not long ago, and completely forgot how much bigger the prop suddenly was in that movie. Look how tiny Cate is next to it! It’s the size of her torso.

I'm not sure I would call it ham-fisted. On the contrary, it seems very self-aware and intentionally campy, perfectly in keeping with the tone of the whole film. Being in a situation where things aren't being taken seriously is one of the ideal places to be when you need to dig into the trope arsenal to mend something in the story (assuming it wasn't planned all along; I'd say you're almost certainly right that it is a retcon, if that's what you're saying, but I don't factually know that it is).

YMMV, of course.