Kathleen Kennedy Damaging Star Wars....?

[fireproof78]

You're right we had limited information with the OT (which were better written and acted) than the sequels, and I've heard variations of that argument before. It doesn't work for me because the OT was new, it was the first introduction to that universe, and since then we've had the PT explained more backstory, we had the (now discounted) EU which also provided more information and fleshed out the contours of the Star Wars universe, so I'm not as sanguine about giving the sequels a pass knowing that they already have a rich foundation they are sitting on compared to the OT which was laying that foundation.

Fair enough. I am for more willing to let a story play out and see it to the conclusion and let information come. I did the same with TPM but that information made the film even less appealing. At least with the ST I have a genuine curiosity to engage the EU materials vs. the original EU which was passing and became more muddled as time went on.

 

[Jayson1]

Does anyone think a big issue is to much "Star Wars" right now? I'm not sure having a new film ever year is a good thing and they now want two a year now. I think about how I felt about "Force Awaken" to how I feel about a new one today and it's vry different. The first one felt like a event and new ones just feel like another blockbuster film. Granted the Marvel movies sort of do this as well but they somehow have been doing a better job of making each new movie feel unique enough and different so you feel like even though they feel connected you get something different from each film. The "Star Wars" films all feel kind of the same. I think "Solo" looks interesting because it might look like the more unique film since "Awakens." Perhaps they should move away from using Jedi stuff and Emprie and Rebel stuff on all the films and start expanding the type of stories they tell. Why not a movie that stars a droid or X-Wing pilots which was a comic book series I recall once reading.

Jason

 

[DarKush]

Does anyone think a big issue is to much "Star Wars" right now? I'm not sure having a new film ever year is a good thing and they now want two a year now. I think about how I felt about "Force Awaken" to how I feel about a new one today and it's vry different. The first one felt like a event and new ones just feel like another blockbuster film. Granted the Marvel movies sort of do this as well but they somehow have been doing a better job of making each new movie feel unique enough and different so you feel like even though they feel connected you get something different from each film. The "Star Wars" films all feel kind of the same. I think "Solo" looks interesting because it might look like the more unique film since "Awakens." Perhaps they should move away from using Jedi stuff and Emprie and Rebel stuff on all the films and start expanding the type of stories they tell. Why not a movie that stars a droid or X-Wing pilots which was a comic book series I recall once reading.

Jason

As soon as I heard about Disney's plans to do a new Star Wars film every year until infinity my gut told me it would eventually kill the franchise. Part of what makes Star Wars special, IMO, is that it is rare. So each saga film felt like an event. The Disney era threatens to make Star Wars more routine, and eventually the nostalgia well is going to run dry and they'll have to rely on spectacle (which other franchises and movies today can match in ways they couldn't during the OT especially), story, and characters, (both of which I felt have been lacking, despite having good actors, for the sequel films). Star Wars is becoming less special.

I agree with you that each Marvel film feels unique, though there is a Marvel formula that is growing tiresome as well. There's a lot more variety in the MCU in terms of storytelling and even characters than there is in Star Wars. Star Wars is attempting to diversify and show more of its universe. Rogue One being a darker war film, and now Solo likely to be a heist/adventure romp, but it's still limited.

While I'm okay with moving beyond the Rebellion and Empire, the title of the franchise is "Star Wars" so there needs to be a big conflict somewhere in the mix (which also limits them). Stories should be about wars or in the shadows of wars. "Star Trek", on the other hand, the name is open-ended. There are so many stories that can fit under that umbrella. And while that is similarly true (technically) for Star Wars, there's still the war aspect that overhangs it. And eventually people will get tired of watching that. I think they need to stick with the Jedi/Sith conflict in some fashion because that's unique to Star Wars. That's something Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Stargate, Babylon 5, The Expanse, etc. don't have. You see smugglers, criminals, bounty hunters, robots/androids, cool ships, aliens, totalitarian governments, etc. on those other shows, but not Jedi, Sith, The Force, or lightsabers.

Solo will be a good test to see if they can continue mining nostalgia, without the original actors, which does open the door for a Leia or Lando film. It could even lead to a Droids film (and we still have the original 3PO around). But once those stories are told, then what?

 

[DarKush]

Fair enough. I am for more willing to let a story play out and see it to the conclusion and let information come. I did the same with TPM but that information made the film even less appealing. At least with the ST I have a genuine curiosity to engage the EU materials vs. the original EU which was passing and became more muddled as time went on.

Similar to how you felt about the prequels, I feel about the sequels. I wasn't jazzed about TFA but I did like Rogue One, so I went into TLJ not super excited though really interested to see Mark Hamill as Luke again and see how he factored into things. I also was curious to see what would happen with Rey and Snoke. And the upturning of everything didn't set well with me. If I watch Episode IX it'll be no anticipation (of anything good) but a mix of obligation and a desire just to tie up a loose end. I'm not sure they can turn it around, for me, at this point. Though I am curious to see if J.J. Abrams will undo what Rian Johnson did when it comes to Rey's parentage, Snoke's identity, and also Luke's role.

I thought TPM was terrible-and is still the worst Star Wars film-but I thought AOTC was an improvement (I actually liked Hayden Christensen as Anakin) and ROTS is one of my favorite Star Wars films. ROTS was not without flaws, Lucas stuffed that film because he hadn't done a good job of spreading out things in the other two films, especially in TPM. But still I enjoyed it. It had some great moments. And the sequels just haven't had many great moments, for me, or what starts out potentially great ends with a fizzle.

 

[Tuskin38]

the time stretch makes more sense because Luke had to be old enough to be taught

Yoda in ESB said Luke was too old to start.

First, the amount of time between the OT and this new trilogy was just too long. Once JJ decided to get the band back together, it created huge story problems to blend GenX fanservice while simultaneously laying the foundation of new characters that we can care about.

George, not JJ. It was Lucas idea to have the old characters, at least with Luke. I don’t know if his ideas included Han and Leia.

 

[The Wormhole]

I do consider Leia and Padme more than sidekicks.

They're totally sidekicks. Hell, Padme got her entire story arc in ROTS deleted.

Regarding black characters, I think Finn (especially in TFA) was a stereotypical character, more offensive than Jar Jar Binks,

I really don't know what to say to that. I could understand not liking the character, but stereotypical? Offensive? Finn is neither of these things.

And while we have seen more black characters, they are generally in background, unimportant roles, or covered in CGI,

Which is a lot more than the OT did. In the OT there were three, count, three black people in it, with Billy Dee Williams the only one who appeared in a movie besides ROTJ. The other two, Jabba's slave girl who got fed to the rancor, and an X-Wing pilot seen briefly in the battle.

 

[fireproof78]

Though I am curious to see if J.J. Abrams will undo what Rian Johnson did when it comes to Rey's parentage, Snoke's identity, and also Luke's role.

I really don't see what needs to be undone.

 

[Tuskin38]

I think the point of her parentage was to show that not everyone is special.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

I really don't see what needs to be undone.

The only one that could reasonably be “redone” without opening up plot holes is the parentage. Not saying it should be but Kylo is not beyond lying.

 

[DarKush]

I really don't see what needs to be undone.

Of course this is all just a matter of opinion. If I had my druthers, I would erase both TFA and TLJ, but I got the impression that TFA was sitting up some things regarding Rey's parents, Snoke's presence alone raised questions (and then ancillary material that revealed he was around during the Rebellion), and what had happened to Luke. I think Abrams set those things up but had no real answers for them. Johnson didn't want to answer them, wasn't interested in that, and decided to overturn the apple cart, to subvert expectations. Many consider that brilliant, I don't. I think some subverting expectations is fine, but Johnson went to that well so many times I felt he just wasn't interested in picking up the baton Abrams had left holding out for him. And Disney and the media got to work trying to convince the masses of us how brilliant and groundbreaking and fresh this 'new' direction was, when I as I've said before, it really wasn't.

And that leaves me wondering that since Abrams is back will he address some of the issues some dissenting fans were most vocal about? The easiest one is Rey's parentage, and as SamusAranX pointed out, Kylo Ren could have been lying about that to lure her to his side-a tactic not uncommon among dark side Force users, or heck, Jedi for all that matter ('from a certain point of view'). And will he make Snoke more important to the overall mythology? It was a waste of a potentially good villain, not on a Darth Maul scale, but still, it was a waste, and I wonder if Episode IX will change it in some form or fashion. With them building up Ben's conflicted nature, I could see them firmly putting him on the light side by the end of Episode IX to pay off on Reylo (because they are not going to let Finn and Rey happen. Poe and Rey would happen before Rey and Finn, and they've already laid the groundwork for a romance between Rey and Ren that makes sense getting a payoff in the next film.). That being said, Rey and Ren will need a worthy foe to fight, and Hux ain't it. Resurrecting Snoke or bringing in that second apprentice of Snoke's seems like a good way to go to give them an adversary strong enough that it requires both of them to defeat him/her.

Abrams is a good director, but he's not an iconoclast. If anything he has a reverence for past material, so I don't see him breaking new ground all that much in Episode IX. I could see him falling back for more of the tried and true.

TLJ, despite the monster box office, I read it fell $200 million short of projections. If Solo also has a softer than expected box office, this might make Disney more amenable to mollifying fans.

 

[DarKush]

Yoda in ESB said Luke was too old to start.



George, not JJ. It was Lucas idea to have the old characters, at least with Luke. I don’t know if his ideas included Han and Leia.

Yes, Yoda did say that to Luke, which is true (thanks to seeing that confirmed in the prequels, but that didn't stop Old Republic Jedi from training people they thought were too old), but I also saw it as Yoda testing Luke's commitment, his patience.

I still don't buy a near 30-year-time gap for Luke to sit around dithering, sulking, shutting himself off from The Force. He wasn't preparing himself for the new battle to be fought, like Yoda and Obi-Wan were, to some extent. Yoda did not shut himself off from the Force. He was communing and learning, and apparently so was Obi-Wan since he also learned how to become a Force Ghost. And arguably, from my perspective, perhaps both Obi-Wan wanted Luke to be older, to choose this life as an adult more so than a kid, like Anakin, who really didn't know what was expected of him.

 

[DarKush]

They're totally sidekicks. Hell, Padme got her entire story arc in ROTS deleted.

I really don't know what to say to that. I could understand not liking the character, but stereotypical? Offensive? Finn is neither of these things.

Which is a lot more than the OT did. In the OT there were three, count, three black people in it, with Billy Dee Williams the only one who appeared in a movie besides ROTJ. The other two, Jabba's slave girl who got fed to the rancor, and an X-Wing pilot seen briefly in the battle.

Finn was a retrograde character and I was very disappointed with his depiction. But the articles below help explain why Finn's portrayal is more problematic better than I can. I was gritting my teeth while Finn sweated, heaved, stumbled and bumbled through TFA, and while TLJ depicted his character better, it wasn't by any great leaps and bounds. I mean in a galaxy were chock full of cool and charming smugglers, wizard-monk swordsmen/swordswomen, bad ass bounty hunters and scavengers, noble and idealistic leaders, and so forth, the most prominent black character in the sequels is a janitor. There's nothing wrong with being a janitor in real life, but I was not pleased that they went that route for Finn, and made it like a punchline, but they did that because he was a punchline. He was running away, getting knocked down, or needing to be saved, and the only thing that made him courageous was Rey, who wasn't feeling him much in TFA, though she seemed more genuinely happy to see him in TLJ. (I think that's because Ridley and Boyega have a natural chemistry, but the films will not let that chemistry run its course on screen).

They couldn't just let Finn be a competent soldier, or maybe engineer, who had a spike of conscience (which I was fine with and perhaps the best thing about Finn's portrayal) and decided to defect. That would've better explained how he knew so much about the workings of Starkiller Base, but TFA just couldn't let him have that, they had to get that joke in, at Finn's expense. And in TLJ, when it appeared that Finn was about to finally shed his fear of the First Order and make the big sacrifice, he was stopped for a very selfish reason by Rose, denying him even a chance to be a hero in a sacrifice, even though we had just saw Holdo make a big sacrifice a few minutes before the battle on Crait. Finn's arc was not completed. He defeated Phasma but he didn't get his big defeat on the First Order, and who knows if he's shed his fear or if he will even stay with the remnants of the Resistance, or why, if Rey isn't there? There's just so much wasted potential with the Finn character.

This is nothing against Boyega. I like him as an actor. I thought he did well in Pacific Rim: Uprising and Detroit. And when he's doing press tours for Star Wars he has an infectious enthusiasm. I just wish they had given him a character that was worth being enthusiastic about.

Representation does have some value, but I'm not giving Star Wars any pats on the back for having a few more black actors in the background. And the few that might get speaking or parts or bits of screen time are failing at something (starship captain in TLJ) or advocating surrender (senator in Rogue One). Or they are crazy like Saw Gerrera (the crazy part I actually didn't mind), but I didn't like that such a dedicated fighter against the Empire would just give up like that, not with such an important mission in the offing. I would've been fine with him going down fighting Imperials.

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/12/hyper-tokenism-the-force-awakens-while-the-black-man-sleeps-162287/

http://www.indiewire.com/2016/01/hy...-body-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens-162223/#

https://shadowandact.com/hyper-tokenism-iii-hiding-the-hispanic-while-the-force-awakens/

 

[Trekkin]

I don’t quiet buy that Abrams intended Rey’s parents to be important to the grand storyline. Her entire character arc in TFA was that she needed to let the remnants of them go, and begin living her own life.

However, I did think that Abrams was setting Rey up to be The New Special. But I’m fine with her being special for her choices, rather than any destiny or whatnot.

Yes, Yoda did say that to Luke, which is true (thanks to seeing that confirmed in the prequels, but that didn't stop Old Republic Jedi from training people they thought were too old), but I also saw it as Yoda testing Luke's commitment, his patience.

But Yoda wasn’t telling Luke that he was too old. Yoda was arguing with Obi-Wan, who we hear trying to convince Yoda to keep him on. You actually see Yoda look at Obi-Wan as he says it.

Luke was just proving his Yoda’s point by continuously butting in. If it was a test of patience, then Luke would have been flunked and kicked of Degobah faster than you can say ‘hyperspace.’

Finn was a retrograde character and I was very disappointed with his depiction. But these articles can explain why Finn's portrayal is more problematic better than I can. I was gritting my teeth while Finn sweated, heaved, stumbled and bumbled through TFA, and while TLJ depicted his character better, it wasn't by any great leaps and bounds.

Representation does have some value, but I'm not giving Star Wars any pats on the back for having a few more black actors in the background. And the few that might get speaking or parts or bits of screen time are failing at something (starship captain in TLJ) or advocating surrender (senator in Rogue One). Or they are crazy like Saw Gerrera (the crazy part I actually didn't mind), but I didn't like that such a dedicated fighter against the Empire would just give up like that, not with such an important mission in the offing.

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/12/hyper-tokenism-the-force-awakens-while-the-black-man-sleeps-162287/

http://www.indiewire.com/2016/01/hy...-body-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens-162223/#!

That last link has nothing to do with Finn. And I mean, it literally doesn’t mention him at all.

It’s a good article though. Especially after Wormhole mentioned Oola further up. Sadly, it’s probably even more applicable to Star Trek than Star Wars.

 

[DarKush]

I don’t quiet buy that Abrams intended Rey’s parents to be important to the grand storyline. Her entire character arc in TFA was that she needed to let the remnants of them go, and begin living her own life.

However, I did think that Abrams was setting Rey up to be The New Special. But I’m fine with her being special for her choices, rather than any destiny or whatnot.



But Yoda wasn’t telling Luke that he was too old. Yoda was arguing with Obi-Wan, who we hear trying to convince Yoda to keep him on. You actually see Yoda look at Obi-Wan as he says it.

Luke was just proving his Yoda’s point by continuously butting in. If it was a test of patience, then Luke would have been flunked and kicked of Degobah faster than you can say ‘hyperspace.’



That last link has nothing to do with Finn. And I mean, it literally doesn’t mention him at all.

It’s a good article though. Especially after Wormhole mentioned Oola further up. Sadly, it’s probably even more applicable to Star Trek than Star Wars.

I just added a third link that focuses more on Poe. I had read the first two previously but didn't know a third in the series. While the second link might not focus on Finn per se, it does help contextualize how Star Wars has depicted black characters or how it has envisioned/placed black actors within its framework, in ways that are not always beneficial, and that reflects back on Finn.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/thandie-newton-wears-gown-honoring-152227745.html

 

[Set Harth]

In the OT there were three, count, three black people in it, with Billy Dee Williams the only one who appeared in a movie besides ROTJ. The other two, Jabba's slave girl who got fed to the rancor, and an X-Wing pilot seen briefly in the battle.

There was also at least one black guy other than Lando hanging around in Jabba's place.

 

[Jayson1]

I didn't much care about Rey's family. To me that was never a issue. My biggest issue with the modern characters is they don't have much chemistry together and to me they are good characters but not great characters. If anything I think Rey should have spent the first two movies dealing with Luke Skywalker because that to me is were she has been most interesting. It's like if Luke didn't really meet Obi-One until the second movie. Nobody has Solo's charisma which was a big issue with the prequels as well and I am beginning to really realize just how important that character was. It says something to me that my favorite has been "Force Awakens" that of course has Solo in it. To me the movies have a tough task of basically replacing the core which was Luke,Solo,Leia,Chewie and R3-D2 and C-Threepio. BB8 is the only one that to me feels like they really were able to replace the old core with something just as good which in this case was the old Droids. It's like comparing the TNG crew to Kirk,SPock and McCoy. TNG never really did it and while they were fine characters and TNG was a good show you don't just replace Iconic characters all that easy. I don't think this new bunch is going to become Iconic. The movies I am sure will be fine and they have been solid for the most part but you still feel like something is missing.

Jason

 

[starsuperion]

I didn't much care about Rey's family. To me that was never a issue. My biggest issue with the modern characters is they don't have much chemistry together and to me they are good characters but not great characters. If anything I think Rey should have spent the first two movies dealing with Luke Skywalker because that to me is were she has been most interesting. It's like if Luke didn't really meet Obi-One until the second movie. Nobody has Solo's charisma which was a big issue with the prequels as well and I am beginning to really realize just how important that character was. It says something to me that my favorite has been "Force Awakens" that of course has Solo in it. To me the movies have a tough task of basically replacing the core which was Luke,Solo,Leia,Chewie and R3-D2 and C-Threepio. BB8 is the only one that to me feels like they really were able to replace the old core with something just as good which in this case was the old Droids. It's like comparing the TNG crew to Kirk,SPock and McCoy. TNG never really did it and while they were fine characters and TNG was a good show you don't just replace Iconic characters all that easy. I don't think this new bunch is going to become Iconic. The movies I am sure will be fine and they have been solid for the most part but you still feel like something is missing.

Jason

Agreed.. Had I watched Rey develop her powers at the foot of the reluctant master, and show her journey to hero, then I may have been a bit more interested in her story, instead as with the modern fallacy, they gave her everything up front, and the one glimmer of hope that could explain it outside of the "agenda" as some are referring to, is to give her a special linage to prop up that "mistake" if indeed it was.. with Rey being essentially the child of nobody, they are saying that Rey just is powerful because it shows anyone can be Rey.. I get that, but it still feels like Mary Sue territory with how it's been presented thus far. Had I watched Rey in grueling training from TFA thru TLJ her character aside from the obvious other issues, would have been more relatable to me, to share in her struggle to power. It was done well in Wonder Woman, as you got two perspectives, one from her childhood to adult to hero, and one from reluctant spy, to martyr and hero who had a lasting affect on his super hero heroine co-star. So what bugs me the most about Rey, is the lack of weakness, struggles, and record of training as was done from ANH thru ROTJ. You felt Luke's progression with the force and training. with Rey, that just doesn't seem to be there.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Star Wars fans: "Give us more Star Wars"
Disney does
Later.... "We don't like the new characters... Give us more Star Wars with Luke Skywalker!"
Disney does
Later.... "We didn't like Luke Skywalker.. or Leia! Give us more Star Wars stories about other classic characters!"
Disney does
Later...."Whoa! Too much Star Wars! Too many changes to classic characters! Fire everybody and let's stop making Star Wars!"

 

[Kane_Steel]

There's definitely a massive disconnect between the executives and creatives... with the SW fan base.

Fortunately Marvel Studios doesn't have this problem.

Hopefully when Kathleen's regime ends, the next team takes more influence from the way Kevin Feige is handling things with Marvel/Disney, and his positive relationship with the fans.

 

[Awesome Possum]

There's definitely a massive disconnect between the executives and creatives... with the SW fan base.

Fortunately Marvel Studios doesn't have this problem.

Hopefully when Kathleen's regime ends, the next team takes more influence from the way Kevin Feige is handling things with Marvel/Disney, and his positive relationship with the fans.

Given the recent events involving the fans, I’d say they were the problem. Not Disney, Kennedy or anyone in front of or behind the camera. So far they’ve done nothing but good for franchise.