Discovery Size Argument™ thread

[Rahul]

Scaling the Excelsiour 50% up (around the same margin as a reasonable size for the Connie would be), would make her about the same length as the Enterprise D (if she remained the same), with ~650m.

These are the shots of the Ent-D and Excelsiour class ships in the same picture:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20161110082031&path-prefix=de

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/...=6x10_Chain_of_Command,_Part_I_title_card.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20140105104511&path-prefix=de

I think that can work. The D is obviously much, much bigger bigger. But not necessarily longer. She is very compressed, very very short for her size. While the Excelsiour is extreeemely long and slim. IMO in this picture, both ships can easily have around the same length, with the D still being the much more voluminous ship.

And don't get me started with the DS9 fleet shots... they are all over the map.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So they're more accurate to the sets.

The commonly accepted non-canon size for the connie is too small for the TOS sets.

Makes no sense, since the Discoprise sets are entirely different to the TOS ones. We already know theyre recycling the Discovery corridors for the Enterprise. We know that Spock's quarters on the Discoprise has a window which the TOS version didn't.

This isn't a fix, it's a re-imagining.

 

[Ronald Held]

Did we see the Excelsior and E-A in movie 6? If so they need consistant scaling and other select 24th century ships?

 

[Tomalak]

Scaling the Excelsiour 50% up (around the same margin as a reasonable size for the Connie would be), would make her about the same length as the Enterprise D (if she remained the same), with ~650m.

These are the shots of the Ent-D and Excelsiour class ships in the same picture:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20161110082031&path-prefix=de

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Chain_of_Command,_Part_I_(episode)?file=6x10_Chain_of_Command,_Part_I_title_card.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20140105104511&path-prefix=de

I think that can work. The D is obviously much, much bigger bigger. But not necessarily longer. She is very compressed, very very short for her size. While the Excelsiour is extreeemely long and slim. IMO in this picture, both ships can easily have around the same length, with the D still being the much more voluminous ship.

And don't get me started with the DS9 fleet shots... they are all over the map.

Yep, @Praetor has done a lot of work on this and has pretty much proven that the Excelsior should be around 650m long. It's just way too small at the official length, and an awful lot to support the longer size. As you say, most of the ship is spindly nacelles and empty secondary hull, so the Galaxy remains significantly more massive.

 

[Longinus]

Oberth can now be about 300 metres and finally make some sense.

But I think if ships are upscaled then TNG ships need to be upscaled as well. Ships in D wall display are obviously supposed to be in scale. Also there are scale issues in Galaxy as well. There is no space for Jefferies tubes between the decks and Ten Forward doesn't fit.

 

[Draculasaurus]

Casual viewer won't care that this Enterprise is bigger then the old one, hell they probably won't even notice.

Casual viewers now means: people who signed up for CBS All Access to watch The Good Fight and decided to take a peek at the new Star Trek thing.
I'm certain they won't notice.

 

[Rahul]

But I think if ships are upscaled then TNG ships need to be upscaled as well. Ships in D wall display are obviously supposed to be in scale. Also there are scale issues in Galaxy as well. There is no space for Jefferies tubes between the decks and Ten Forward doesn't fit.

Maybe. But not nealry by as much. I generally thin that +/- 20% for every size is within the margin.

The USS Voyager is probably the very first ship were the size truly is defined exactly. This ship is a marvel from a production standpoint, with sets and windows fitting to the model to an A. Altough there are issues with the shuttlebay-size, especially after they introduce the Delta Flyer. But the bridge + readyroom sets and the mess hall are a perfect fit with the outside of the ship. The NX-01 is even more amazing in this regard. Truly, from a production standpoint, the late Berman/Braga era is clearly unmatched in it's eye for all the details.

 

[Longinus]

Then again Voyager still can remain small even if other TNG era ships were enlarged as we almost never saw it near other Federation ships.

 

[Gonzo]

I personally am glad to see the pre TNG era ship dimensions taken more seriously.

I always felt that the official ship sizes were never really thought out properly and were unrealistic when taking into account the crew complements and provisions they would have needed, it was understandable of course as when ToS was first shown the special effects were basic and no one knew how big it was going to become.

Hence why I was so happy with the Abramsprise when the first of the new films was released, as it was clear that someone had really put some thought into it.

As a consequence that opens the door for the Excelsior/1701B to be made larger as well which would be fine in my book, although I don't think its necessary that it be increased by the same amount unless the internal sets we saw demand it, I would say maybe boost it up to 550m perhaps, which would then enable the Ambassador class to break into the 600m range with the Galaxy class topping out in the mid/high 600s.

Enterprise 1701 - 480m
Enterprise 1701A - 500m
Enterprise 1701B - 550m - Similar in length to the 1701A but more bulky with a greater internal volume.
Enterprise 1701C - 600m - We don't really see much of it so its not really an issue.
Enterprise 1701D - 650/700m - Doesn't really need to change at all.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Buat again, we're not changing any of those original ships. We're changing Discoveryverse analogues of them which look different, have different sets and uniforms etc.

The size change in the Disco-D7 has zero effect on the size of the TOS-D7. Ditto the Discoprise and the rest (should they ever appear)

 

[Tuskin38]

Buat again, we're not changing any of those original ships. We're changing Discoveryverse ana

Yes we are.

with sets and windows fitting to the model to an A.

Janeway’s (and other quarters that used that set) would like a word.

The amount of windows on that set doesn’t match anything on the hull

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yes we are.

No, we aren't. We're talking about the Discovery versions of these ships which without doubt aren't the originals.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

No, we aren't. We're talking about the Discovery versions of these ships which without doubt aren't the originals.

Stop pretending it's a different continuity, because it isn't. Show runners say as much. They're the authority here, not you.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Stop pretending it's a different continuity, because it isn't. Show runners say as much. They're the authority here, not you.

This isn't about continuity where we turn on our doublethink and pretend nothing's changed, this is about what's in front of our eyes. The Discovery Enterprise is not the same design as the TOS Enterprise, deliberately so, and thus it's scale has no relevance to it. Ditto the D-7 size.

 

[Rahul]

Janeway’s (and other quarters that used that set) would like a word.

The amount of windows on that set doesn’t match anything on the hull

Janeways quarter was here, right in the front:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20060722221726&path-prefix=en

That's why hers is the only one with 5 windows, and in her quarters the stars move from front to back in flight direction. All other quarters have two to four windows, and stars moving sideways, which are in all various lengths distributed all over the hull:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20101223205034&path-prefix=en

Tuvoks quarter had three windows for example:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20161105222438&path-prefix=en

This is all well documented. If you want to read more:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Quarters#Intrepid-class_info


Again, this ship was fuckin' SUPER well thought out!

 

[WarpFactorZ]

This isn't about continuity where we turn on our doublethink and pretend nothing's changed, this is about what's in front of our eyes. The Discovery Enterprise is not the same design as the TOS Enterprise, deliberately so, and thus it's scale has no relevance to it. Ditto the D-7 size.

The Discovery Enterprise is close enough to the TOS version to be really an inconsequential change. Who knows about the D-7, but whatever. I can squint and accept this is the same universe/timeline/continuity. The Discovery Enterprise is clearly the ship that gets refit in to the TMP vessel we know and love.

We know that Spock's quarters on the Discoprise has a window which the TOS version didn't.

Did you ever notice that NONE of the crew quarters had windows? Neither did the rec rooms, meeting rooms, etc... In fact, unless I'm mistake, the only time we see windows on the Enterprise is in the shuttle bay (Conscience of the King). I'm not bringing up the bridge viewscreen here.

This certainly isn't because the Enterprise didn't have any windows. Nor is it because every room shown on screen just happened to be toward the ship's interior. It was a limitation of special effects. Windows in the quarters would have ended up looking like everyone put up a poster of a star field on their wall.

So, Spock's quarters always had a window. It was probably just off camera during all of TOS. Same room, same ship, same continuity.

 

[XCV330]

I have no problem with an imaginary ship being imagined as being one size for awhile and later another size. It doesn't affect previous stories or break continuity in a meaningful way. TOS ships always seemed too small for the crew compliments, however.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Discovery Enterprise is close enough to the TOS version to be really an inconsequential change. Who knows about the D-7, but whatever. I can squint and accept this is the same universe/timeline/continuity. The Discovery Enterprise is clearly the ship that gets refit in to the TMP vessel we know and love.

That you can't make sense of the Klingon designs and reconcile them like you're trying to the Enterprise, shows how flawed your stance is.

Did you ever notice that NONE of the crew quarters had windows? Neither did the rec rooms, meeting rooms, etc... In fact, unless I'm mistake, the only time we see windows on the Enterprise is in the shuttle bay (Conscience of the King). I'm not bringing up the bridge viewscreen here.

Pike's quarters had a window. We saw a window in "Mark of Gideon".
The classic movie Enterprise's had plenty.

This certainly isn't because the Enterprise didn't have any windows. Nor is it because every room shown on screen just happened to be toward the ship's interior.

Why not?

It was a limitation of special effects. Windows in the quarters would have ended up looking like everyone put up a poster of a star field on their wall.

They had an entire ring of obvious posters masquerading as viewscreens all around the bridge and they were prominent in every single episode.

So, Spock's quarters always had a window. It was probably just off camera during all of TOS. Same room, same ship, same continuity.

Nope, the set didn't have a window (check out the TOS set tour if you don't believe me!), much less one directly opposite the door as seen in DISCO.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

That you can't make sense of the Klingon designs and reconcile them like you're trying to the Enterprise, shows how flawed your stance is.

I don't give a flying frack whether or not you think my stance is flawed. I'm not seeking your approval. Besides, my stance is that Discovery takes place in the same timeline as TOS, and that happens to reflect the stance of the show runners. That would seem to suggest that it's YOUR stance that is flawed.

Nope, the set didn't have a window (check out the TOS set tour if you don't believe me!), much less one directly opposite the door as seen in DISCO.

You seem to have missed the point of my comment...

 

[Tuskin38]

That's why hers is the only one with 5 windows

The actual filming set only had 4 windows.
Maybe there was a window in that side room, which I'm assuming is the bathroom?