Balance of Terror- The Event that Made Captain Kirk's reputation

[SpyOne]

Mitchell was not the XO in WNMHGB, Spock was. It was in the script and Nimoy was costumed accordingly.

I did not know that about the script.
I guess I had thought the notion that Kirk asked to have Spock made XO because of his value in that incident had been made ... retroactively official? That the costuming "error" was simply to avoid having to make nimoy a shirt just for the pilot.

He's not a superhero, that's a nuTrek type of thing. In TOS Kirk was clearly young for his job, but it wasn't implied that the rules for mortal men didn't apply to him.

I didn't mean to suggest anything like the ridiculous extremes to which nuTrek rises. I meant that Kirk benefited from rare exceptions.
As an example, in TNG Data says an officer could expect to spend 12 years "in the Lieutenant grades". Riker clearly did not, as less than 12 years out of the Academy he's already a Commander.
More aptly Stephen Decatur was recommended for promotion to Captain without having commanded a vessel, although he was placed in command of a ship before confirmation of his promotion came back across the Atlantic.

To me the idea that Kirk had no command before Enterprise is almost to imply that there are no smaller vessel commands in Starfleet. If there are, who is commanding the destroyers, frigates, scouts or what you will, if not officers like (Lieutenant Commander, Commander) Kirk? Why would Kirk be not qualified for command of a smaller ship at that point of his career, but then be qualified for one of the high-prestige starships?

The assumption (and it certainly is just an assumption) is that Kirk, like the people/characters he was partly based upon (Horatio Hornblower and Stephen Decatur, notably) repeatedly committed acts of great distinction, and moved up the ladder by bounds.
Certainly the other people we've seen in command of similar ships all seemed older than Kirk.

So while Ben Tracy probably commanded a string of smaller vessels as a Lieutenant Commander, Commander, and Captain before being given the Exeter, Commander Kirk may not have paid all those dues.

Stephen Decatur's first command was, IIRC, a vessel he had captured from the enemy. He was put in charge of the boarding party, not really intended to be given permanent command of a ship.

Kirk did something awesome. Not "let's make this cadet CO" awesome by any stretch, but something that said "this guy is ready for a command, an important command." And then Chris Pike gets tapped for promotion, and the Admiralty (or Starfleet equivalent) is wondering who to get to fill his chair. And somebody says maybe that's two problems with one solution: give the Enterprise to Kirk.

Like how for the battle of Midway, command of the carrier task force was given to a cruiser captain who had never commanded a carrier because Admiral Halsey said he was the best man for the job.

As I said, this is all just my feelings. If your feelings disagree I can't fault that. Certainly I would expect most Starship Captains commanded several smaller vessels first. But Kirk seemed attached to the Enterprise in a way that suggested she wasn't just one of many ships he'd commanded.

(In fact, Kirk's attachment for the Enterprise may be a good argument against promoting people directly to the big ships. I recall a TNG era novel where a character feels that Kirk was too young to be in command, citing several TOS episodes as stuff he clearly just made up. )

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

No way. There is no "in the running." If the XO slot is vacant, the next senior officer is "it." How much of the XO daily duties he/she would take on might depend on the duration of the vacancy, but there is never any question of who is next in line of command of a warship. The idea of a succession crisis after the loss of a captain in battle is unthinkable.

I was referring to the permanent appointment as XO. Certainly the next senior officer would act as exec, but until Starfleet makes a decision it's just an acting position that may or may not become permanent.

 

[Samuel]

Sorry I was unclear:
I meant that Enterprise was the first ship where Scotty was Chief Engineer. There were previous ships he had worked on, but this was the first that was his.
I can't recall that being explicit in TOS, and in fact it comes from a line in TNG "Relics", but it seemed fitting: By the movies it is clear that Scotty has an attachment to the (original) Enterprise that goes beyond what one would expect.

I don't remember that line from "Relics" either.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The dialogue from "Relics" is as follows:

PICARD: Constitution class.
SCOTT: Aye. You're familiar with them?
PICARD: There's one in the Fleet museum, but then of course, this is your Enterprise?
SCOTT: I actually served on two. This was the first. She was also the first ship I ever served on as Chief Engineer. You know, I served aboard eleven ships. Freighters, cruisers, starships, but this is the only one I think of. The only one I miss.
PICARD: The first ship I ever served aboard as Captain was called the Stargazer. It was an overworked, underpowered vessel, always on the verge of flying apart at the seams. In every measurable sense, my Enterprise is far superior. But there are times when I would give almost anything to command the Stargazer again.
SCOTT: It's like the first time you fall in love. You don't ever love a woman quite like that again. Well, to the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again.

 

[J.T.B.]

More aptly Stephen Decatur was recommended for promotion to Captain without having commanded a vessel, although he was placed in command of a ship before confirmation of his promotion came back across the Atlantic.

Not so, see below.

The assumption (and it certainly is just an assumption) is that Kirk, like the people/characters he was partly based upon (Horatio Hornblower and Stephen Decatur, notably) repeatedly committed acts of great distinction, and moved up the ladder by bounds.

Hornblower followed exactly the command steps one would expect of a Royal Navy officer of the era: Sloop, post ship, frigate, ship-of-the-line.

Decatur was promoted to captain early as a reward for commanding the Philadelphia destruction expedition, but only passed over seven lieutenants, the rank of commander not being in use at the time. But he had commanded the brig Argus and the schooner Enterprise and been first lieutenant of two frigates by that point, so his experience level was not far out of line.

Stephen Decatur's first command was, IIRC, a vessel he had captured from the enemy. He was put in charge of the boarding party, not really intended to be given permanent command of a ship.

Lt. Decatur took command of the prize ketch Mastico, renamed Intrepid, for the Philadelphia mission. But he had been captain of Enterprise when she was captured

Like how for the battle of Midway, command of the carrier task force was given to a cruiser captain who had never commanded a carrier because Admiral Halsey said he was the best man for the job.

Spruance took over for Halsey; he was a rear admiral and had not been captain of a cruiser, but had commanded a cruiser division. There weren't as many aviation-qualified flag officers to choose from at that point. The only rear admirals with wings available at Pearl Harbor were Leigh Noyes and Pat Bellinger. Jake Fitch, the other carrier division commander besides Halsey, was returning from California with Saratoga. Bellinger was quite junior. That left Noyes, but Halsey strongly recommended Spruance for his brains and ability, and it proved to be a great decision.

I was referring to the permanent appointment as XO. Certainly the next senior officer would act as exec, but until Starfleet makes a decision it's just an acting position that may or may not become permanent.

But permanent assignment as XO wouldn't change who was second-in-command to Kirk during WNMHGB, which was what I though we were talking about.

 

[SpyOne]

The dialogue from "Relics" is as follows:

A good quote.
It may be the Mandela Effect, but what I was remembering was a similar conversation with Geordi.

 

[SpyOne]

Not so, see below.

Thank you for the correction.
I guess I had dismissed Decatur commanding a ship crossing the Atlantic as it seemed he was just delivering it to someone else.
More importantly, I had forgotten that he was then given a ship of his own (Enterprise, no less).

And I was relying too much on misty memories of the movie Midway.

 

[J.T.B.]

I guess I had dismissed Decatur commanding a ship crossing the Atlantic as it seemed he was just delivering it to someone else.

A lot can happen crossing the Atlantic in a smallish sailing vessel, it's no small responsibility!

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

But permanent assignment as XO wouldn't change who was second-in-command to Kirk during WNMHGB, which was what I though we were talking about.

That wasn't what I was talking about. Did you miss the part where I said "what if", or are you just deliberately trying to start a fight?

This is all simply an interesting idea based, mainly, on the fact that no one was identified as XO in WNMHGB. Spock was science officer, Mitchell was navigator. Neither was stated on screen as being the XO. Which opened the door to 50 years of speculation concerning who was. I simply raised a third possibility.

 

[Commishsleer]

That wasn't what I was talking about. Did you miss the part where I said "what if", or are you just deliberately trying to start a fight?

This is all simply an interesting idea based, mainly, on the fact that no one was identified as XO in WNMHGB. Spock was science officer, Mitchell was navigator. Neither was stated on screen as being the XO. Which opened the door to 50 years of speculation concerning who was. I simply raised a third possibility.

Spock easily took the role as XO in WNMHGB whether it was his assigned job or not.
Could be just he took the role because Mitchell was incapacitated but no-one questioned him in the role - not once. In some ways he took the lead ahead of Kirk.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Spock easily took the role as XO in WNMHGB whether it was his assigned job or not.
Could be just he took the role because Mitchell was incapacitated but no-one questioned him in the role - not once. In some ways he took the lead ahead of Kirk.

Before bulletin boards came along, I never dreamed that Gary Mitchell could be Kirk's first officer. Maybe that's because the context of the whole subsequent series made Spock the obvious XO in my mind, but there's another thing: If Gary had been the first officer, his hospitalization would have played as a bigger deal to the ship. Kirk would surely mention or at least imply what a hole it left in his staffing when the second in command was out of commission. But instead, it was played as a minor issue if at all, just a bridge crewman down, and other crewmen are easily covering for him.

When Spock was out sick in "Operation: Annihilate!", he was referred to as "the best first officer in the fleet." And there was probably another mention or two of his importance to the ship.

 

[J.T.B.]

That wasn't what I was talking about. Did you miss the part where I said "what if", or are you just deliberately trying to start a fight?

I saw the "what if." Does that mean it's beyond question? That would certainly reduce discussion traffic. And though I did question it, I don't see why it should involve a fight.

You seemed to be saying, maybe there is no first officer, because the position is vacant and Starfleet hasn't decided how to fill it yet. I am saying that seems unlikely. Just because Spock was never stated to be FO, I don't think that makes it likely that there was none.

But even if the first officer slot had become vacant, someone would be acting in that position, whether formally assigned or not. From the viewer's perspective, the vacancy background story wouldn't matter. Nor do I see the hypothetical scenario presented as solving any particular problem in the episode. Spock acts like the FO as he does in all the other episodes. He wears a different uniform, but one more in line with the FO position. Mitchell acts more like a navigation/helm officer.

Before bulletin boards came along, I never dreamed that Gary Mitchell could be Kirk's first officer.

Me neither. I don't think it was much of a question when people saw episodes in original or rerun order, regular viewers were familiar with Spock being 2iC and, shirt color notwithstanding, there was no reason to think any different for WNM.