just because jim and gary knew each other for years doesn't mean they were joined at the hip the entire time.
Balance of Terror- The Event that Made Captain Kirk's reputation
- Thread starter Samuel
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I believe Spock, Gary Mitchell, and Kirk had a longer tenor on board the Enterprise than that one episode. I doubt their were any ship hopping as a trio; their experiences together were on the Enterprise.
Kirk's connection to the ship is a novel thing in TOS, supposedly. We can't even canonically support the idea that it would have spanned "years"; for all we know, Kirk joined his old pal Mitchell and this weird Vulcan colleague of Mitchell's mere weeks before "Where No Man". Certainly he still shows unfamiliarity with Spock's coldly calculating Vulcan ways there.
There's no trio that we would have been told of. There's just a series of duos - Spock/Mitchell, Kirk/Mitchell, Kirk/McCoy. And these don't coincide temporally. Not unless we speculate past (and contrary to) canon.
Timo Saloniemi
Well from "The Menagerie" it is Star Trek Canon that Spock served aboard Enterprise years earlier under Captain Pike. Whether that service is continual up to the original series is not canonical IIRC but conjectured.
It has always stood to reason for me that Kirk would've commanded a smaller ship prior Enterprise. But probably with the rank of "commander" rather than "captain".
Note, that the largest submarines in the U.S. Navy (Ohio class ballistic missile submarines) are normally "captained" by an officer with the rank of "commander".
It has always stood to reason for me that Kirk would've commanded a smaller ship prior Enterprise. But probably with the rank of "commander" rather than "captain".
Note, that the largest submarines in the U.S. Navy (Ohio class ballistic missile submarines) are normally "captained" by an officer with the rank of "commander".
It's not the size of the vessel, it's the size of the crew.
Correct.
An Ohio class submarine has a crew of only 155 IIRC.
I've always felt that based on what we've seen onscreen in OS, that Kirk, Mitchell, Kelso, Sulu, and Scott all served together on another ship previously. there is a level of familiarity among them even in Where No Man Has Gone Before.
Spock was probably already serving on the Enterprise when they all were assigned aboard and that McCoy and Uhura were assigned aboard some time prior to Man Trap (though Kirk had probably been friends with McCoy a long time before that).
We know from WNMHGB that Kirk has known Mitchell for 15 years, that they apparently met at the Academy, that Kirk asked for Mitchell on his first command, and that Spock and Gary Mitchell have served together "for years." But we don't know for sure that the Enterprise is Kirk's first command. Indeed, it would make a lot of sense if Kirk commanded a smaller ship at the rank of Commander before he came to the Enterprise. Perhaps Kirk asked for Mitchell on that command but wasn't able to get him for some reason or another.
Also, Kirk and Spock don't seem terribly familiar with each other yet (they're apparently playing chess together for the very first time in the teaser, and Kirk tells Spock "I think there's hope for you yet" in the epilogue). Personally, I think that if Kirk & Spock knew each other for very well or very long before WNM, it takes away a lot from the development of their friendship that we see over the course of TOS.
It's tough to say how well Spock and Mitchell knew each other, since we really don't see much of Mitchell's unaltered personality in WNMHGB. You could read Gary asking Spock about how the chess match went as either affectionate teasing or Gary feeling out the Vulcan that he doesn't know that well yet. The line reading is ambiguous enough that I think you could go with either interpretation, but I think Dr. Dehner's line about Gary & Spock serving together "for years" leans toward the former.
Therefore, I think it's intriguing to theorize that Gary Mitchell was assigned to the Enterprise before James T. Kirk was, towards the tail end of Pike's tenure as Captain. That way he could serve with Spock "for years" (probably in the neighborhood of 2-3 years) and be unavailable for when Kirk asks for him on his first command (on the ship he commanded before the Enterprise). I personally find it very interesting to think that Mitchell might have known Spock better than Kirk did at the time of WNMHGB.
Also, Kirk and Spock don't seem terribly familiar with each other yet (they're apparently playing chess together for the very first time in the teaser, and Kirk tells Spock "I think there's hope for you yet" in the epilogue). Personally, I think that if Kirk & Spock knew each other for very well or very long before WNM, it takes away a lot from the development of their friendship that we see over the course of TOS.
It's tough to say how well Spock and Mitchell knew each other, since we really don't see much of Mitchell's unaltered personality in WNMHGB. You could read Gary asking Spock about how the chess match went as either affectionate teasing or Gary feeling out the Vulcan that he doesn't know that well yet. The line reading is ambiguous enough that I think you could go with either interpretation, but I think Dr. Dehner's line about Gary & Spock serving together "for years" leans toward the former.
Therefore, I think it's intriguing to theorize that Gary Mitchell was assigned to the Enterprise before James T. Kirk was, towards the tail end of Pike's tenure as Captain. That way he could serve with Spock "for years" (probably in the neighborhood of 2-3 years) and be unavailable for when Kirk asks for him on his first command (on the ship he commanded before the Enterprise). I personally find it very interesting to think that Mitchell might have known Spock better than Kirk did at the time of WNMHGB.
That might well make for an interesting novel:
Science officer Spock of the U.S.S. Enterprise is asked to help mentor an up and coming officer newly assigned to the ship.
But that officer is not James Kirk. It's Gary Mitchell. A hotshot Lieutenant on the fast track to command. But will even Spock be able to recognize the demons within Mitchell that carry the seeds of his own destruction? And perhaps that of the entire ship and crew as well?
I've always taken it as a given that Kirk had a command prior to the Enterprise as the Constitution-Class is the biggest and best ship in Star Fleet. Like in the real world, I'm unaware of any case where someone's first command was a battleship or carrier, they usually earned that spot by showing their capability on smaller vessels.
Dibs.
It can be named "Before Where No Man Has Gone Before"!Dibs.
As I understand it (I'm no kind of expert), it is fairly rare to replace the CO and XO of a ship at the same time.
Thus, it is unlikely that Kirk and Mitchell came to the Enterprise at the same time.
Even when both will be leaving at about the same time, often the XO will stay for one deployment under the new CO to help the crew with the transition.
I would guess the opposite happened eith Enterprise: Gary Mitchell came on as XO for Pike's last year in command and stayed on under the new Captain.
In fact, Mitchell just might have gotten that job because Starfleet knew they wanted Kirk to replace Pike when Pike got promoted. But that requires that they knew they were going to make Kirk a Captain a full year before they did, and Kirk is already pretty young for a Captain.
I agree it is probable that any Starship Captain commanded something smaller first, but I got the impression that Kirk's attachment to the Enterprise was like Scotty's: it was the first ship that had been his.
During Kirk's meteoric rise to the Captain's chair, he may have skipped a few steps.
Thus, it is unlikely that Kirk and Mitchell came to the Enterprise at the same time.
Even when both will be leaving at about the same time, often the XO will stay for one deployment under the new CO to help the crew with the transition.
I would guess the opposite happened eith Enterprise: Gary Mitchell came on as XO for Pike's last year in command and stayed on under the new Captain.
In fact, Mitchell just might have gotten that job because Starfleet knew they wanted Kirk to replace Pike when Pike got promoted. But that requires that they knew they were going to make Kirk a Captain a full year before they did, and Kirk is already pretty young for a Captain.
I agree it is probable that any Starship Captain commanded something smaller first, but I got the impression that Kirk's attachment to the Enterprise was like Scotty's: it was the first ship that had been his.
During Kirk's meteoric rise to the Captain's chair, he may have skipped a few steps.
We still have to decide upon a lot of variables:
- Was Mitchell ever the XO? It's Spock who wears the command gold.
- Is the Enterprise a big ship? She has a low crew count under Pike who wears Lieutenant braid, and doesn't grow any bigger under Kirk who wears Commander braid initially.
- When exactly did Kirk get the Enterprise? He got her directly from Pike, but the timing is unclear.
- When exactly did Spock start working under Pike? No later than "The Cage", but it's perfectly possible to claim that this adventure took place two or, say, five years after the two became colleagues, leaving a nice gap between the end of their pairing and the beginning of the Kirk/Spock pairing.
We may make the simplest choices. But those probably won't be the most interesting or exciting ones.
Ultimately, Kirk had a reputation as a mighty warrior in mid-TOS, as claimed by both Garth and Kor and at least in the former case acknowledged by Kirk. We can see he didn't gain this during TOS. It's quite plausible that he did something extremely heroic before his Enterprise tenure, and this heroism is what skyrocketed him directly to the Enterprise, even in the scenario where the Enterprise is "big" rather than merely "special". After all, we see this very thing happen in another timeline... With an even bigger Enterprise.
Timo Saloniemi
- Was Mitchell ever the XO? It's Spock who wears the command gold.
- Is the Enterprise a big ship? She has a low crew count under Pike who wears Lieutenant braid, and doesn't grow any bigger under Kirk who wears Commander braid initially.
- When exactly did Kirk get the Enterprise? He got her directly from Pike, but the timing is unclear.
- When exactly did Spock start working under Pike? No later than "The Cage", but it's perfectly possible to claim that this adventure took place two or, say, five years after the two became colleagues, leaving a nice gap between the end of their pairing and the beginning of the Kirk/Spock pairing.
We may make the simplest choices. But those probably won't be the most interesting or exciting ones.
Ultimately, Kirk had a reputation as a mighty warrior in mid-TOS, as claimed by both Garth and Kor and at least in the former case acknowledged by Kirk. We can see he didn't gain this during TOS. It's quite plausible that he did something extremely heroic before his Enterprise tenure, and this heroism is what skyrocketed him directly to the Enterprise, even in the scenario where the Enterprise is "big" rather than merely "special". After all, we see this very thing happen in another timeline... With an even bigger Enterprise.
Timo Saloniemi
Where do you get the idea that the Enterprise was Scotty's first ship? I don't remember any of that in OS. IIRC it was suggested that Scotty had helped design or at least worked on Enterprise's construction which of course is possible given his apparent age in OS and the indications that Enterprise was around 20 years old at that point.
Some fan publications like by Walter Irwin and G.B. Love in their Best of Trek books suggested that Kirk was the commanding officer of a number of smaller ships and that one of them (Starstalker) was a small prototype (but high powered ship kind of like the Defiant in concept) that Kirk got to put through its paces which Scotty became Chief Engineer on (given he designed it) and Mitchell served as Kirk's XO.
And that it was aboard Starstalker that Mitchell saved Kirk's life.
I've always liked that story because "Starstalker" is such a cool name and IIRC had some connection in the 1970s with a series of books that George Takei planned to write. "Mirror Friend, Mirror Foe" being the first and the suggestion that one called "Stellar Flower, Savage Flower" was supposed to be the second in a "Starstalker trilogy".
How about this for a possibility. What if there was no first officer in WNMHGB?
The previous XO, probably Number One from The Cage, has just been transferred out to a command of her own, a destroyer perhaps. Several officers are in the running to take over the first officer's slot, with Spock and Mitchell being the front runners, but Starfleet has yet to make a decision. This mission to the galaxy's edge comes up, Kirk insists that he can handle it without an XO. Starfleet accepts that, figuring they can decide who'll end up as first officer when Enterprise returns.
After Mitchell's death, Spock becomes first officer.
The previous XO, probably Number One from The Cage, has just been transferred out to a command of her own, a destroyer perhaps. Several officers are in the running to take over the first officer's slot, with Spock and Mitchell being the front runners, but Starfleet has yet to make a decision. This mission to the galaxy's edge comes up, Kirk insists that he can handle it without an XO. Starfleet accepts that, figuring they can decide who'll end up as first officer when Enterprise returns.
After Mitchell's death, Spock becomes first officer.
I like that but she probably took command of the USS Yorktown and wanted to know when that medicine was going to be delivered, or maybe that was Dr. Boyce that wanted to know.
Mitchell was not the XO in WNMHGB, Spock was. It was in the script and Nimoy was costumed accordingly.
He's not a superhero, that's a nuTrek type of thing. In TOS Kirk was clearly young for his job, but it wasn't implied that the rules for mortal men didn't apply to him.
To me the idea that Kirk had no command before Enterprise is almost to imply that there are no smaller vessel commands in Starfleet. If there are, who is commanding the destroyers, frigates, scouts or what you will, if not officers like (Lieutenant Commander, Commander) Kirk? Why would Kirk be not qualified for command of a smaller ship at that point of his career, but then be qualified for one of the high-prestige starships?
No way. There is no "in the running." If the XO slot is vacant, the next senior officer is "it." How much of the XO daily duties he/she would take on might depend on the duration of the vacancy, but there is never any question of who is next in line of command of a warship. The idea of a succession crisis after the loss of a captain in battle is unthinkable.
Sorry I was unclear:
I meant that Enterprise was the first ship where Scotty was Chief Engineer. There were previous ships he had worked on, but this was the first that was his.
I can't recall that being explicit in TOS, and in fact it comes from a line in TNG "Relics", but it seemed fitting: By the movies it is clear that Scotty has an attachment to the (original) Enterprise that goes beyond what one would expect.
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