Oh, just you wait until the Trek Wars start.
"Enterprise" too advanced for 22nd Century
- Thread starter CaptainSpirk
- Start date
Oh, just you wait until the Trek Wars start.
The designs in ANH stand up because they were not made on a 1960s TV budget.
It is also not meant to depict our future.
In fact, the original Star Wars was made on a much tighter budget than its sequels. If anything, the designs hold up because they're pretty basic. And design and budget are two different issues. Design is what you can imagine; budget merely limits what you can execute. But an important part of production design is imagining how to get the best results with limited resources.
* Just want to clarify, I'm not arguing in *favor* of maintaining a 1960s look for ENT or DSC here, actually I'm saying that a natural evolution/retcon of design when budget allows them (eg. TMP) is good. I just feel like, I need to defend ENT against the charge that it 'didn't look like TOS' on the grounds that the *expectation* it should look anything like TOS is dumb and would never have even been there had TNG and DS9 not ratified the TOS look. If all we did was assume that the TMP aesthetic is how TOS would've looked with a bigger budget, which was what all of us did before Scotty's holodeck in Relics, then ENT looking as modern as it did would hardly be worthy of note.
It's exactly the same deal with the stupid 'Klingon problem'. A grand total of zero people gave much ado about crinkly foreheads or whatnot, we just assumed that TOS had a low budget and crinkle!Klingons are just what they always looked like, that's even what we take away from DS9's Blood Oath. So noone was asking the question about Klingon foreheads until someone made it a big deal to the actual characters in universe.
My point is that Enterprise and Discovery are misblamed for this, when it's what a certain type of fan expects which is the issue, not that the sets don't look retro. And it was TNG and DS9 which set up that expectation, not ENT or DSC.
It's exactly the same deal with the stupid 'Klingon problem'. A grand total of zero people gave much ado about crinkly foreheads or whatnot, we just assumed that TOS had a low budget and crinkle!Klingons are just what they always looked like, that's even what we take away from DS9's Blood Oath. So noone was asking the question about Klingon foreheads until someone made it a big deal to the actual characters in universe.
My point is that Enterprise and Discovery are misblamed for this, when it's what a certain type of fan expects which is the issue, not that the sets don't look retro. And it was TNG and DS9 which set up that expectation, not ENT or DSC.
That's okay as far as it goes, but my point is that I reject the premise that it "didn't look like TOS" altogether. It clearly drew a lot of stylistic inspiration from TOS, if you pay close enough attention to notice. There were a ton of ways in which ENT's technology was designed to look like a forerunner of TOS technology. Doug Drexler, Michael Okuda, and the rest of the ENT art team worked hard to put in as many TOS homages and foreshadowings as they could.
On the contrary, that was a lively subject of debate and speculation among fandom long, long before the actual shows addressed the issue. The implicit official stance, and the one advocated by Roddenberry when he was asked about it, was that the Klingons had always had ridges, but since when did fans meekly go along with the official stance? People were making up explanations for the change in the Klingons as soon as TMP came along. There are a number of works of tie-in fiction from the '80s-'90s that offer a fairly good cross-section of the many fan theories that were out there. John M. Ford's The Final Reflection from 1984 posited that Klingons created genetic "fusions" of themselves and their various neighbor races in order to better understand and deal with them, implying that the humanlike Klingons seen in TOS were Klingon-human fusions. Chris Claremont and Adam Hughes's 1992 Debt of Honor graphic novel from DC posited that the two different varieties of Klingon were rival races and that a civil war was decided in the ridged race's favor sometime before TMP, with the smooth-headed race being discommendated and exiled en masse. There's a 1993-4 time travel storyline by Howard Weinstein and Gordon Purcell in DC's TOS comic which shows Klingons of both types coexisting throughout Klingon history. Michael Jan Friedman's 1999 novel My Brother's Keeper: Enterprise, conversely, strongly implies that ridged Klingons are the result of a genetic-engineering experiment that the naturally smooth-headed Klingon people undertook around the time of the second pilot to breed a fiercer type of warrior.
And I'm sure you can find articles and speculations about the change in some of the old Best of Trek fanzine collections, though it's been so long that I don't remember any specifics. I know the genetic-engineering idea was popular, along with the theory that a disease had changed the Klingons -- presaging the explanation we eventually got, but the other way around, assuming that they were smooth-headed first. Personally, I always thought it was foolish to assume the entire species had to change all at once. After all, the only Klingons we actually saw in TOS were military personnel, so we didn't know anything about how the civilian population looked.
I agree. I thought the designers behind Enterprise struck a good balance of making the NX-01 look less advanced then the original series Enterprise but still appear more advanced then today. I can't imagine that was easy to do, but somehow, at least IMO they pulled it off. I thought they worked hard to make it clear the NX-01 was a less advanced starship--it lacked the technology of it's later cousin, and wherever possible they made it appear less advanced.
I too remember fans frequently opining about the change in the Klingons. I know some fans eye roll that Enterprise decided to finally put that question to rest and make the different appearance official in-universe. But I for one loved that they finally addressed that on screen. Some novels, like The Final Reflection, mentioned genetics as a possible cause, and I figured that sounded reasonable, and the Enterprise episodes ran with that idea also. I remember reading one of the novels that gave a reason why Kor, Kang and Koloth appeared with ridges in Blood Oath, though I can't remember which book exactly, was it Forged in Fire? But I do remember seeing that.
What makes no sense is why Bashir, being a 24th century Federation/Starfleet doctor, did not already know the answer.
History was not his thing. A 200 year old condition to a species that solved it prior to the peace would be outside his interests, since it doesn't deal with a surviving illness.
He might know of the illness it was based on, and he might even know of the genetic mutation caused by Augment DNA (like his), but not what it did to the Klingons. Plus it is likely that such information was classified. Not only due to Section 31 interference, but just because it had to do with Augments at all, which seems to be a blackout subject for the Federation.
He might know of the illness it was based on, and he might even know of the genetic mutation caused by Augment DNA (like his), but not what it did to the Klingons. Plus it is likely that such information was classified. Not only due to Section 31 interference, but just because it had to do with Augments at all, which seems to be a blackout subject for the Federation.
How the people of the 24th century didn't know about the Augment virus is an interesting question. Worf stated they didn't talk about it to outsiders, but Archer's crew was aware of it. And how were they not aware that Klingons once appeared pretty frequently with smooth foreheads in the mid to late 23rd century at least?
Now I know the real world answer to that. When they aired Trials and Tribble-ations the showrunners didn't have the answer at the time and it wouldn't be answered until years later. They probably put that in as a sort of thruway line with a bit of humor. I imagine when those episodes of Enterprise aired that they hoped people wouldn't read too much into that particular conversation between Bashier, O'Brien and Worf (though we are Trekkies and analyze everything
).
My best guess would be that since the Augment virus was apparently eliminated by the late 23rd century (judging by Kang's appearance in Voy: "Flashback" as a ridged Klingon) that the Klingon appearance with smooth foreheads was forgotten to history. That by Bashir and O'Briens time, it was no longer common knowledge. I can see how it would be embarrassing for the Klingons to talk about it since it was basically a mistake.
Now I know the real world answer to that. When they aired Trials and Tribble-ations the showrunners didn't have the answer at the time and it wouldn't be answered until years later. They probably put that in as a sort of thruway line with a bit of humor. I imagine when those episodes of Enterprise aired that they hoped people wouldn't read too much into that particular conversation between Bashier, O'Brien and Worf (though we are Trekkies and analyze everything
).My best guess would be that since the Augment virus was apparently eliminated by the late 23rd century (judging by Kang's appearance in Voy: "Flashback" as a ridged Klingon) that the Klingon appearance with smooth foreheads was forgotten to history. That by Bashir and O'Briens time, it was no longer common knowledge. I can see how it would be embarrassing for the Klingons to talk about it since it was basically a mistake.
I still say it would've been so much simpler and better if they'd just established that "Klingon" was the name of a multispecies culture, in the same way that "Federation" or "Dominion" is. After all, an empire is by definition a state ruling over other states, so it's always been contradictory for Trek to portray alien "empires" as monospecies.
When they aired Trials and Tribble-ations the showrunners didn't have the answer at the time and it wouldn't be answered until years later. They probably put that in as a sort of thruway line with a bit of humor. I imagine when those episodes of Enterprise aired that they hoped people wouldn't read too much into that particular conversation between Bashier, O'Brien and Worf (though we are Trekkies and analyze everything
I've said this before on the forums but I have no doubt the writers meant it purely as a joke and never knew the sort of life the joke would take on (to the demerit of the franchise as a whole, frankly) for many, many years after. The Augment virus, yes, but also the whole idea that TNG took place in the same 'visual continuity' as TOS has been a stick that Trek has been beaten with repeatedly ever since, most glaringly on the reaction to DISCO.
I'm pretty sure ENT was the first series to actually show a Klingon subject race, but of course they did nothing with it.
If you hadn't said "actually show," I would've said TNG did it first. "The Mind's Eye" established Krios as a subject world of the Klingon Empire that was rebelling against their rule. Ambassador Kell said the High Council was considering granting them independence rather than waste resources putting down the rebellion -- "We'll conquer them again later if we wish." However, we saw no actual Kriosians in that episode, only the Klingon governor. I doubt the writers even intended the Krios from "The Perfect Mate" a year later to be the same world, since that Krios is said to have been at war with Valt Minor for centuries and there's no mention of the Klingons being involved. So TNG didn't actually show a Klingon subject race unless you choose to believe that both planets named Krios are the same.
Technically, the first Klingon subject race shown onscreen was the Organians. But that conquest was very short-lived. Otherwise, I expect that most of the aliens seen in Rura Penthe in TUC were from subject peoples of the Empire. It makes little sense that a Klingon prison would only have foreign inmates.
I guess that shows the great variety of fans Star Trek has. I'm on the other side. I was curious from the very first time I saw different Klingons on the original series from the movies (since I saw the movies first) why they appeared differently. I knew the real world reason of course--but I always wondered if there'd be an in-universe explanation. When I first heard they were doing Trials and Tribble-ations I wondered how they would tackle that question since they'd obviously be showing Klingons from the original series. I was actually a bit disappointed they dodged the question (though I admit Bashir and O'Brien's reaction was pretty humorous, because it was the same exact reaction I had upon seeing Klingons in the original series). When I found out Enterprise was going to tackle it once and for all I couldn't wait to see those episodes. I thought they did a pretty good job with it too. It made sense to me--the only question it sort of left open was how people in the 24th century had forgotten about it, but I just figured since Klingons don't talk about it as Worf stated, it became one of those historical curiosities that were forgotten by the masses (in a way it's lucky Dax was not with Bashir and O'Brien, because of her knowledge of Klingon history I'd imagine she'd be aware of the Augment virus).
I'm not sure why them explaining the different appearance is a detriment to the show though. It's not like it consumed hours and hours of television space. It was a few episodes of Enterprise, episodes that I thought were pretty good actually, and not just for explaining the different appearance. And sure, TNG takes place in the 'same' continuity as the original series, however, since it was about 100 years after the first series, they were able to take it in a largely different direction.
The main issue I have with Discovery is it's so close to the original series, and with some of the showrunners and staffers insisting this is the prime universe, they created their some of their own problems with fans. I still think setting it maybe the late 25th century or later would have served them better if they wanted to operate in the prime universe.
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It's more a detriment to the show being able to progress itself within modern production design. Establishing the classic 60's look in Relics as exactly what it looked like in universe put the creators in a stranglehold later. When TOS was produced it was the best vision of the future they could make. Ditto for TMP. And TNG. Each time updating the look and softly retconning what had come before.
After Relics, instead of the "future" being the best representation of the year a given episode is produced in, it now resembles what a TV show could put out 50 years ago.
Needless to say; if TNG had done an update of the TOS Bridge back then and set the trend from the off, I doubt there would be the same furor about Discovery's aesthetic pallet today.
Obviously it didn't, because Kelvin and DSC have both been totally free to change the look. It's not a stranglehold if you can break it at will. All it did was put some overly literal-minded fans' imaginations in a stranglehold. And fans have got to stop being so arrogant as to assume they have the power to dictate the form the actual shows and films take.
You're probably wrong about that. There's always something that sets off the "fans" who are predisposed to furor. Some people just want to be negative and they'll latch onto whatever excuse they can find.
Also, I think there's a bit of a difference here. In "Relics" they hired the original actor who played the original character, so when he went on the holodeck wanting to look at his original ship, it made sense that they'd design it to be the same. Why would you change the set design of the original ship when the other 2 ingredients were the same.
And I think another difference is they were sort of paying homage to the original series with episodes like that, or "In A Mirror, Darkly" on Enterprise.
I'll admit, I'm one of those that prefers a recognizable continuity. I'm not as far as saying Discovery should look like "The Cage". I know you can't do that. It's fine, even a bit fun to see it on an episode like "In A Mirror, Darkly". But that is just a one off episode (well 2 but you know what I mean). That's just a bit of fun nostalgia, and I thought it was cool to see the 60's set adapted with current special effects and lighting and so forth. But I know that would not work for an entire series.
However I wish there be a bit more consistency. I noted earlier I thought Enterprise did a pretty good job with the set design striking a balance between making it less advanced then the NCC-1701, but still look futuristic from our standpoint. It seemed at least to me with Discovery that they abandoned any attempt to strike that balance.
