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White self-hatred.... it's impact on mixed race people and families?

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Maybe not white guilt but people do need to realize the problems in society. If people can't even be honest with what is wrong then how can anyone ever try and solve them. I just don't know how society can ever grow out of what has been done. First one group has to learn to share power while also feel like they still matter to society. The other side basically has to be able to trust the other side despite the hundreds years of history telling you that it's dangerous to have that kind of trust. It also almost has to happen at the same time while also dealing with the fact that everyone is a individual so everyone is going have individual quirks in what needs to happen and all this while knowing that no matter how hard you try their will still be bad people which just makes it harder for any of the other people to do all those things.

Jason
 
I don't understand why you'd think progressives aren't interested in equality?
You sound more interested in punishment and engaging in the exact same things you accuse white people of doing - marginalization, exclusion, etc

Thankfully there are far more reasoned and centered people actually doing things about equality.

We don't have equality right now, there's so far to go, and you have so many people trying to hold on to their privilege, so I really am struggling here? I mean, do you believe there isn't a power imbalance right now?
I believe there is a power imbalance but it's not nearly at the levels you think it is. I also believe it gets better and better every day, and the youth of today are being raised with a different, more positive outlook than ever before. The evidence is right there for everyone to see but people like you would rather rather moan and demand people feel things like guilt. People like you are actually a detriment to progress - keeping black people dependent on you while spouting empty rhetoric that does really nothing but make you feel better about yourself, for instance

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Oh yes western civilization has accomplished so much, but if you really believe there aren't groups of people who are suffering from a broken system, isn't that like the definition of privilege?
1) There will always be people suffering from a broken system as no system is perfect
2) If you think I believe that there aren't people suffering then you're more naive than you pretend to be
3) I use my "privilege" to hire minorities and pay them well. How are you using yours apart from bloviating on a message board?

guilt is important to feel

You need a feeling of guilt

we need to feel guilt

not feeling guilt about that is contributing to institutionalized racism
:lol: I mean look that this shit.

I'm not interested in guilt, I'm interested in active solutions and positive change that's inclusive to all.
 
1) There will always be people suffering from a broken system as no system is perfect

Maybe there will be one day, but yes, aslong as humanity has exsisted and the foreseeable future, there will always be people, for use of a better term, an underclass and that will remain while one of the things we do is separate everyone up into different groups.

I'm not interested in guilt, I'm interested in active solutions and positive change that's inclusive to all.

As am I. It's why I was so happy for the referendum results last weekend here (legalising termination of pregnancy) and in 2015 and the referendum that allowed same sex marriage and why I am so angered by the election results in the UK since 2010. Ireland is positively progressive, compared to the UK and other countries.
 
The evidence is right there for everyone to see but people like you would rather rather moan and demand people feel things like guilt. People like you are actually a detriment to progress - keeping black people dependent on you while spouting empty rhetoric that does really nothing but make you feel better about yourself, for instance

2) If you think I believe that there aren't people suffering then you're more naive than you pretend to be
3) I use my "privilege" to hire minorities and pay them well. How are you using yours apart from bloviating on a message board?

@Garak , you were previously asked to stop the personal comments, but you have persisted. This constitutes an ongoing personal attack.

Infraction for Trolling. Comments to PM.
 
In order for a person to be guilty, they must have done something to warrant it. Otherwise? It's simply disingenuous to act thusly. They are not criminal, merely by association or by design

Ironically, suggesting being born a specific race equates to being born into guilt IS the exact & sole definition of racism. It's not the 1st time I've balked at folks suggesting people are born into sin. No offense, but I find the notion preposterous

In order to hold advantage, you must continually take advantage. We don't live in a 2 dimensional static. By actively seeking to take no advantage, a person is doing their best to not contribute to a condition where others are disadvantaged because them. Just be as fair as you can in life.

Feeling any kind of additional self-loathing, over being born what you are, accomplishes nothing that works towards equality. It only offers whatever amount of retaliatory disparagement is deemed socially appropriate at the time, established apparently with some sort of race based handicap ranking in mind, which is decided by who exactly? because such a ranking IS racist

If you want equality, I'm your advocate in as many ways as we can manage, that overcomes any & every existing disparity. If you want retribution, I'm out.
 
has served me well over the years.
Oh dear, see that's exactly the point, right?

Guilt isn't about self loathing, not at all. Recognizing guilt is about knowing you're actively part of a system that benefits one group (yours) over others. You gain advantages at others' expense. You need to feel discomfort about that, but I understand how no one really wants to go there, because that's like the definition of uncomfortable, right? We all want an easy answer and a solution that doesn't really require sacrifice. If you're not willing to feel guilt you have advantages over others in your own society, how will you really be willing to accept change that takes away your privilege?

You can notice how much anger I'm receiving just by talking about this, I certainly don't want anyone angry, but some people really are afraid of equality, they're afraid tables are going to get turned and they'll become oppressed, it's so very sad and unfortunate. But oh yes equality does mean elimination of privilege, which I really do understand is something that's hard and uncomfortable, but it really needs to happen. My feeling is if you're not willing to feel guilty, to me that means you're not really willing to acknowledge disadvantages minorities face and what's really going to be needed to bring about equality?

I'm very deeply sorry if I'm coming off really hard, I have to deal with my own guilt too for benefiting from white privilege. I've experienced sexism my whole life, and I've heard so many men tell me it's not such a big deal, and it's my fault and everything, and many men don't want to change their culture because it means giving up his preferred status, and racism is very similar, so I try my best to empathize with other minorities and their plights, because it's real, right?

Thank you kindly.
 
When you're aware of concepts of privilege, you'll know there's no such thing as racism against white people, just like there's no such thing as sexism against males.
I had been hoping this was said to be sarcastic, but after reading the rest of the thread, I guess you really are sincere in thinking that no racism exists against white people and that it's impossible to be sexist against males.

Yes, racism exists in which non-whites insult, belittle, denigrate, seek to harm, and even legislate to the extent they can, against whites.

The examples I'm thinking of are right here in Canada. There's an affordable housing block in Calgary, Alberta in which a white family was housed among several families of Sudanese refugees. In theory, because Canada is officially a multicultural country, everything should have been fine. But the Sudanese families were very unhappy that the non-Sudanese, aka white, family was there, and made their lives a living hell. As these were all people on some sort of government assistance, it's not like anyone could just decide to pick up and move. Things got to the point of threats of violence, harassment, and finally the white family was allowed to leave for other housing.

I honestly couldn't say if the Sudanese hated them for being white or just for not being Sudanese. But the hostility existed, and it escalated to the point where the white family had a legitimate fear for their safety.

Another example is the "Marry out, get out" policy of one of the FN reserves. It's not legal under Canadian law, but it's a policy adopted by the council that runs the reserve. Any indigenous member who married or wanted to live common law with a non-indigenous person could not have their spouse or kids living with them on the reserve. Things got very ugly, there was harassment, and it turned violent.

So do not sit there and say that no racism happens against white people. I know that some think it's only racist if the perpetrator has power over the target, but that's baloney.

As for sexism against males... I say this as someone who was raised by my grandparents, and my grandfather had the patriarchal attitude that girls and women obey the fathers and other male relatives, and told me flat-out that I was not entitled to my own opinions until I was an adult, and at that time he expected I would marry. After marriage, my opinions would be whatever my husband's opinions were.

This caused a lot of bitter arguments, and there were other things that I had to deprogram from over the years since my grandfather died.

Now all that said, there are times when sexism does occur against males. Yes, there are more instances of fathers getting custody in divorces (mine did, as long ago as 1971), but there's still an assumption that mothers are the default best people to care for kids. And ask any male nurse if he's ever experienced snickers and derogatory comments for going into the nursing profession, flat-out assuming that male nurses must be gay or have something else "wrong" with them if they opted to do "women's work."

I'm sure there are numerous other examples, but since I'm not male, I'm not the one to talk about what I haven't had any first-hand knowledge either as an observer or as one who experienced the prejudice.

Oh white guilt (and male guilt) is so absolutely necessary right now, because of historical oppression of minorities and women, and it's still going on today, so your dominant class totally needs to realize what it's done and figure out how to even things out, and you know there's still such a very long way to go, right? Oh it's totally not at all about self hate, it's about recognizing how white (males) are still dominating in so very many ways.

Nobody is saying that white males haven't, or don't still, have a long way to go. What some people here are saying is that they're not the only guilty parties.

I don't feel at all comparing sins of other cultures is in any way relevant?
It's relevant to acknowledge that they've happened in the past, are happening in the present, and will continue to happen in the future.

Guilt is not just about past crimes, but also you and I enjoy privilege right now that others don't, and we need to feel guilt for that, because we have to work to change injustice.
If they haven't perpetrated any oppression, why should they feel guilty? Should I feel guilty now because there's a chance that some ancestor of mine was a Viking who murdered people in England and Ireland? I don't know if it happened in my family, and if it did, it's nothing to do with me, and I'm certainly not living on any wealth gained by looting a monastery over a thousand years ago.

There are nuances to this whole issue of guilt - it's okay to not feel guilt if you personally didn't do anything and couldn't have prevented the wrongs from happening. What isn't okay is to not acknowledge that the wrongs happened and to strive to not commit them in the future.

As a white male especially you have advantages over minorities and women, and not feeling guilt about that is contributing to institutionalized racism, sexism, and other forms of discriminatory oppression. Like a bit part of the whole progressive movement is to help people see this, right?
Are you accusing specific male posters here of being sexist? Sure, some are. But most, from my observations, aren't. If you mean a general "you" it would be helpful to make that clear.

I do think that @Mr. Laser Beam is correct: There is a difference between guilt and responsibility.

There's also a difference between guilt, responsibility, and acknowledgment.

Am I guilty of perpetrating any of the crimes against the native population of Canada? I don't think so. I was never a part of the decision to establish and perpetuate the residential school system, and I was a child during the Sixties Scoop. So I do not, and should not, feel guilt about that. I acknowledge that it happened, and my view is that it's something that the government of Canada, along with the Anglican and Catholic churches, should be deeply ashamed of, along with anyone else who ever supported these institutions and programs.

The responsibility I feel is to acknowledge that they happened and to teach others (where appropriate) that they happened. As far as the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is concerned, I'm in agreement with parts of it. What I'm not in agreement with are some of the attitudes regarding cultural appropriation and if any indigenous person ever calls me a "colonizer" (one of the new terms for "white person of European ancestry"), I will be very angry. I was born here. I was not born in Europe. My grandparents and great-grandparents acted lawfully in acquiring their land they homesteaded.

It's a situation that can't be viewed as a black and white thing (no pun intended). There are many shades of grey, both legally and culturally.

I am hoping for robots someday running things. They won't have any of our emotional baggage. It will be all based on pure logic.

Jason
That's very much dependent on what the robots are programmed to see as "logical." They could easily be programmed to see all people with green eyes as inferior, and it won't be an emotional thing other than on the part of the programmer.

I would not want to give the robots emotions. Basically we need Data to run the planet.

Jason
Interesting example, since Data always tried to understand emotion and tried to develop it in himself, prior to acquiring his emotion chip.
 
In order to hold advantage, you must continually take advantage. We don't live in a 2 dimensional static. By actively seeking to take no advantage, a person is doing their best to not contribute to a condition where others are disadvantaged because them. Just be as fair as you can in life.

You don't need to actively seek privilege in order to benefit from it. To those who enjoy it, it is often invisible to them.

Here are a couple articles discussing white privilege, if anyone is interested.

White privilege is an academic observation, not an accusation

White privilege and an exploration of uncomfortable truths
 
I would recommend reading this article from The Root, it might help understand a little bit?

https://www.theroot.com/reverse-racism-explained-1823964786

I'm saddened people still aren't seeing how currently benefiting from historical oppression does not make you culpable? We as white people today still enjoy an advantage at other peoples' expense. Oh it's so totally real and going on constantly. I know people don't want to acknowledge it because it's so very uncomfortable. It's everyone's responsibility now to help overturn our system and bring about equality, but how are you really going to be a part of that without deep self reflection and guilt about your own privilege?

Reverse sexism is just as much a myth. Sexism and racism require power, which women and minorities don't have. Here's an interesting article you can read that maybe will explain much better than I will?

https://thegenderblenderblog.wordpr...act-there-is-no-such-thing-as-reverse-sexism/

Your nurse example is just another of sexism against women, men who work in "female" careers are looked down on because he's doing a woman's job, he's less of a person because he's too much like a woman. That's totally degrading to women! But oh yes absolutely men do suffer from sexism, but sexism only exists as power of men over women, it's just not possible to go the other way. Yes you can be a woman and be a man-hater or something, and you can discriminate against men, but that's not sexism, just like minorities discriminating against white people isn't racism.

I still feel what people are struggling to understand is how if you're white, you have privilege, though yes you will feel it differently for everyone, but it's still there, and privilege comes at someone else's expense, and minorities are still oppressed today. Oh dear I really hope people seriously don't believe we're in a post-oppression society? You see that's totally why all this white-guilt and male-guilt stuff is absolutely necessary so we can work towards equality?
 
Here's another good one, that sort of speaks to some of the points raised in the thread.

Friendly Reminder: Misandry Isn't Really Happening


A small excerpt:

Misandry is as real as reverse-racism is. White people, who have historically been in change and have successfully oppressed minority races, are not suddenly the victims of reverse racism just because we finally are entering in to an age in which minority races are able to loudly and accurately be critical of the history of racial oppression. White people are not suddenly the victims of reverse racism just because minority races point out the still-rampant examples of white privilege. White people are not the victims of white racism even when they are at the receiving end of slurs and insults like “cracker,” (a rare occurrence in itself).

They can be on the receiving end of discrimination, yes. There are many people who discriminate against white people and judge all white people based on the actions of some. But that is not racism; that is not oppression. A race that has systemically oppressed other races for centuries is not suddenly on the receiving end of the same oppression by members of racialized groups pointing out white privilege or calling out a white person’s racist slurs.

In the same way, misandry doesn’t exist in practice, but prejudice against men can. There are some people who truly believe that men are the problem and freely spout insults about men as a whole. But the difference between systemic oppression (misogyny) and a personal prejudice (the so-called misandry) is something that too many people fail to recognize.

Fundamentally, a group cannot be in a position of systemic power and continue to hold that position of power, then accuse the oppressed who are trying to create a fairer world that they are being oppressive. That does not make sense in any world.
 
You don't need to actively seek privilege in order to benefit from it.
I said take advantage, not seek privilege. The context being that I'd pointed out that in order for someone to genuinely feel guilty, there must be guilt, & as such, there must be wrong doing which they are guilty of, beyond being born into a race
 
The trouble with the white guilt thing is that it puts people on the defensive. Yes, inequality is rife, but if you’re white, and grew up in poverty, in an all white area, and you’re struggling to make ends meet, but other white people are telling you that you’re privileged for being white, and living in that damp slug infested mold ridden slum doesn’t matter, or that flag, that your grand parents fought under, is now racist, somehow. And the migrants, that move to your community for a better life, can’t blame em, but put pressure on healthcare and housing resources, obviously, but if you question it you’re racist, even though the migrants have the same skin, hair, religion and trainers as you,

Why is it surprising that the progressives are losing the votes? I have had the misfortune to meet genuine racist people, hateful people, but most people are too concerned with keeping their own roof and feeding themselves and children to be drawn in to guilt thing.

Feeling guilty for their white privilege, is not a luxury that all white people can afford, but champagne socialists don’t see that.
 
I said take advantage, not seek privilege. The context being that I'd pointed out that in order for someone to genuinely feel guilty, there must be guilt, & as such, there must be wrong doing which they are guilty of, beyond being born into a race
Imagine that like you're born in a castle full of grain, and you grew up there. Your ancestors stole all that grain, but you didn't, but you have it now, and people outside are starving, but you're all comfortable behind your walls. Don't you feel you should feel guilt, even though like you personally weren't responsible? White guilt is about you and I as white people benefiting from white privilege, I know it's really terribly difficult concept, I'm so very sorry I haven't been more patient and compassionate tonight. :(
 
Who are you responding to?
I'm so sorry dear, I think I was mostly responding to yours, comments about poor white people not understanding white privilege. I know it's difficult for them, I can totally imagine if they've lived through economic hardship it's not at all easy to see how they're still part of a privileged class, that's why I linked that article, it is a wonderful read explaining facets of how white privilege works. :)
 
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In Britain it's common for edgy comedians or political commentators to say stuff like 'whites are responsible for the world's problems'. See Sara Pascoe's comments on 'gammon' in the video; I like her, yet I find that stuff about her feeling guilty startlingly short sighted. I'm getting a bit fed up of this type of self-hate, especially because as a mixed race person, I find it incredible that language which would is openly racist if used against one half of my ethnic background, is used openly against the other half of my background; so I'm in the weird position where people are being openly racist against my identity, and I am an ethnic minority, and it's seen as perfectly fine by the intelligentsia, because in their rush to bandwagon on the 'evil whitey' rhetoric, they have forgotten some of their cherished adopted constituency of minorities have white mothers or fathers. As constructed racial categories break down, perhaps a lot of people are going to find they are on the wrong side of history in perpetrating this narrative?

"Raising a White Child as a Black Parent in an Age of White Guilt Hysteria"

The Arab Slave Trade, the imperialism of Persia, Arabia, Egypt, Assyria, Turkey, Mongolia, Central Asia, Japan and China, the bloody ethnic cleansing of Hindus, the destruction of Buddhist schools, the persecution of Eastern Christians, the execution of atheists, the oppression of minorities like the Hmong, the caste system of Japan or India... I know my history, and no part of the world has a monopoly on evil. The European peoples, themselves actually many distinct peoples some of who had nothing to do with the USA's race history, are not the unique cause of the world's problems. As Jawaharlal Nehru noted in "Glipses of World History", Europe was often a colony of Asia, so how can it be the origin of colonialism?

People in the west who are proponents of this white guilt attitude tend to underestimate the progress, goodwill and honesty of the west and it's institutions, which are remarkable in world history, instead fixating on the bad examples, like transatlantic slavery, CIA interference in South America, or the USA's history of race relations. In many countries, the kind of criticism that scientists, scholars, politicians and journalists place themselves under in America or Britain is often non-existent, or heavily contingent on the goodwill of religious bigots or other biased parties. The Arab world has never come to terms with it's history of African slavery as far as I know, but is never called out on it in documentaries of world history, nor has Pakistan come to terms with the massacres that established it's state religion of Islam in South Asia, while Cortez's conquest of the Aztecs are emblazoned in every BBC Documentary on civilization. In a functioning democracy all institutions reinforce one another and keep discourse honest; teaching critical thinking, the facts of science, sceptical history, sceptical journalism, and personal responsibility for truth. British history books, or documentaries, deals with English involvement in colonialism, but in British classrooms of a dozen ethnicities, perhaps teaching only white history is no longer good enough.

Isn't it better not hate any other human? Does one need to self-hate or is that ultimately just as evil and reactionary? I was raised to simply be good to others, not to divisively pin my colours on some identity, and set it in opposition to another, but the west currently seems obsessed with fractious/divisive ideologies regarding race and gender. I wonder how much of that will result in one group projecting it's Jungian shadow on another? Can't rights be won without demonizing another?

Speaking as a half asian man, I think citizens of the west should be a bit more proud of their civilization, and regain a sense of their progressive mission. I would rather live in the democratic culture that gave rise to Star Trek, Star Wars and JRR Tolkien than one where books are burned, and history dynamited. The west seems to me, to be more genuinely post-racial and pan-human than any other time in world history.
Anything based on hatred is defeatist and that includes hating on yourself because you might be white or male. It doesn't balance the books.
 
I'm so sorry dear, I think I was mostly responding to yours, comments about poor white people not understanding white privilege. I know it's difficult for them, I can totally imagine if they've lived through economic hardship it's not at all easy to see how they're still part of a privileged class, that's why I linked that article, it is a wonderful read explaining facets of how white privilege works. :)
So what you’re saying is that you can be cold and hungry, living at the mercy of a bastard landlord, your children sleeping in the damp, living off handouts that cover nothing, and resorting to loan sharks just to live, an inch from destitution, and you can’t even feel bad about it, if you’re white.

Everyone deserves a decent quality of life, regardless of their skin colour.

I’ve had the privilege of looking at the abyss with a baby in my arms, wondering where we’ll be come the next feeding time, and will it be warm. What’s your privilege, dear.
 
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