After TLJ, Is "Franchise Fatigue' now Plaguing Star Wars?
- Thread starter Kane_Steel
- Start date
With Beyond I think Simon Pegg did get out early in an attempt to mollify the fans but that doesn't mean Beyond was hampered creatively by appealing to the fans. I mean, Beyond did present a James T. Kirk who was actually thinking of quitting Starfleet, who had grown tired of exploring. Perhaps that's similar to Admiral Kirk in TWOK, but to me, it felt different and fresh to present a Kirk, at that young stage in his career, contemplating retirement, and that spawned from his character progression that was unique to the Kelvin timeline. I don't see a creative restriction with Beyond. It wasn't the most original film, but I didn't see it twisting itself in knots to insert an iconic figure like Khan into it, who I felt was unnecessary to tell that story in Into Darkness really. Into Darkness was the biggest fan service offender and it also turned out to be the highest grossing (thanks to the international box office that is). And when I think back, I think all of the new Trek films sought to appeal to fans, didn't antagonize them, even though Into Darkness proved divisive enough to turn off a large segment of people away from Beyond. Also, with Star Wars back by that point, Trek might have looked less appealing in comparison. And the marketing for Beyond wasn't the greatest either. (I really think Paramount screwed up by not putting out a film by 2011, and allowed the goodwill built by the 2009 film to whittle away).
I've only seen a handful of Discovery episodes, but just from some of the griping on this website alone (plus what I've seen on You Tube) I don't think nostalgia is driving Discovery so much because a lot of Trek fans have issues with it based on canon, aesthetics, etc. Granted, nostalgia does play a role. I mean, the setting of Discovery is likely do to evoke nostalgia and get hardcore Trek fans to subscribe to CBS All Access. But Discovery from the look of the uniforms, to the look of the Klingons, to Michael's relationship to Spock, are all things that would and have triggered some old fans in ways that if Discovery was that committed to appeasing them it wouldn't have done IMO. Granted, there are references, nods, to other Trek series, and there's also Pike, which could be very big for them next season, but I don't think nostalgia alone is the driving force, it's more like the honey to attract the bees.
From what little sense I get from online fandom and articles, there didn't seem to be that much fan desire to see a Solo film period, so if Disney/Lucasfilm thought that, then they don't have their finger on the pulse of a large number of fans.
I don't consider myself a hard core fan, but I have enjoyed the first six films, plus Rogue One, watched some of the cartoon series, and read quite a few of the EU novels, but I'm not dressing up as Boba Fett or something. While I thought TLJ was "better" than TFA, I didn't like either film. I did like Rogue One though.
In the case of ID4, the definition of "good movie" is "fun movie," and in that case specifically a very, very, very fun movie. However, I never saw the sequel, because I didn't think it needed one and certainly not one worth paying money for that wasn't getting good reviews or word of mouth. Another lesson: being sequel-worthy isn't the definition of a good, successful film.
Fans are not always accurate and are highly fickle in their loyalties and what they want to see, at least in my experience. The Prequels, much reviled when I first started in to online fandom, are now considered the good ol' days.
Han Solo is one of the most iconic figures in Star Wars. People remember him, the Millennium Falcon, and the like, without necessarily watching any Star Wars films. The idea that this movie was unasked for, while Rogue One was, is odd to me, to say the least.
Yeah, I don't think your too likely to see the words Independence Day Resurgence and beloved in the same sentence.
Okay, maybe that sentence.
Okay, maybe that sentence.
I don't think its any one problem.
Perhaps not. But most of the messages and video clips I've seen on the Internet have cited "The Last Jedi" as the reason many are not interested in seeing "Solo".
The antipathy towards Disney Star Wars has made me highly skeptical of how large of an impact that is really having, versus just being a very vocal minority repeating the same message over and over again.
Well Kathleen Kennedy is an idiot, so it's well deserved.
You two have the right to continue to be in denial if you choose to.
However, the negativity is spreading against Kennedy and her SW films, and TLJ was the breaking point.
Even Jeremy Jahns is now acknowledging the Fan Backlash against the Kathleen Kennedy SW films:
It's only going to continue to build over the next 18 months, unless some regime changes are made over at Lucasfilm.
Kathleen Kennedy is not an "Idiot".
Overall, her track record is pretty good. The only misstep was "The Last Jedi".
Rian Johnson and Disney take at least as much blame for that garbage.
The problem is- Star Wars is a real limited thing. It's not like Star Trek at all.
The "real story" was told in 1977. It's ONLY because "The Empire Strikes Back" was so great, that Star Wars continued.
Lucas was already repeating himself with "Return of the Jedi". The prequels were just a bonus.
Honestly, there's not much more of value to mine with "Star Wars". It's all about merchandise and making $$$.
But Kathleen Kennedy is no idiot. No man could do better.
Overall, her track record is pretty good. The only misstep was "The Last Jedi".
Rian Johnson and Disney take at least as much blame for that garbage.
The problem is- Star Wars is a real limited thing. It's not like Star Trek at all.
The "real story" was told in 1977. It's ONLY because "The Empire Strikes Back" was so great, that Star Wars continued.
Lucas was already repeating himself with "Return of the Jedi". The prequels were just a bonus.
Honestly, there's not much more of value to mine with "Star Wars". It's all about merchandise and making $$$.
But Kathleen Kennedy is no idiot. No man could do better.
Very few in my experience - I work in a comic shop and talk to a lot of the target demographic.
Personally, I loved The Last Jedi but disliked Force Awakens. A lot.
Rogue One was unexpectedly great and Solo...was enjoyable.
I still don't understand how The Last Jedi was a misstep?
Exactly. I know it wasn't perfect, but I loved it.
The Force Awakens nearly stopped me going to see a Star Wars movie again.
I like The Force Awakens as well. Derivative of A New Hope, but still fun to watch.
Who is Jeremy Jahns and why should I care about his opinion?
If you have read any of my posts, you would see that I admit that yes, backlash does play a part in Solo's box office woes. I don't think it plays a particularly big part, but I have acknowledged it exists. You, on the other hand, refuse to admit anything except for your ridiculous notion that Kathleen Kennedy is an idiot, that TLJ is the reason Star Wars is "failing" (it's not) and that because a few vloggers have confirmed your bias. There are other reasons that have been brought to the table. Yes. Fans have been unhappy. They have made it clear that they're boycotting Star Wars. Fine. But if you can't see that there are other reasons, I don't know what to do with you.
From an actual reputable source (The Hollywood Reporter):
To acknowledge the elephant in the room that you can't seem to ignore, YES, they suggest that Last Jedi may have played a part in the box office failure. But you notice its one line? As a parenthetical? At the end of a paragraph? What does that say to you? When the actual pundits are suggesting that its the release date and proximity to another Star Wars entry that is the problem, that's enough for me. (And to save you the trouble of having to read the article, its the only reference in the article about the unhappiness of fans over TLJ. And its minimized.)
And isn't that what all of this about?
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Speaking from the experience of one who used to loathe the movie....
There a still definitely noticeable flaws. For me they detract from, but do not completely sink the film. A lot of negative perception comes from the fact that people interpret it as trying to deconstruct or bury what Star Wars is about. What they fail to see is who said such lines (bury the past) and why they say it. In the end, with Luke choosing to remain a Jedi and go out like one, and faith that Rey will continue the Jedi, the film maintains the status quo of the Star Wars universe, with a caveat that these heroes will learn from the failures of prior heroes. Anyone who denies imperfection from our prior heroes, both OT and PT, need a rewatch. I could go into more detail about it, but that encapsulates why I enjoyed the film now more than before. I don’t think it helped either that some, not all, but some prescreen reviews were akin to “omg! better than ESB” or “this is horrible! Disney and Rian have destroyed Star Wars!”
There was no middle ground. Which is where I stand now. TLJ is a decent film but certainly could be a lot better with tweaking. Sorry, but if fan backlash for TPM or AOTC didn’t torpedo Star Wars, I’m hard pressed to see as to how TLJ could, unless a lot of fans who hate it continue to speak with their wallet. Again, we really should avoid any judgement calls until 9. RoTJ and RoTS both improved on box office take from their predecessors, a rare feat for three-quels, but now 2 for 2 for Star Wars. If 9 does not, than something is definitely amiss
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TLJ is far from perfect. No Star Wars movie is perfect. Even the beloved Empire Strikes Back has some flaws. As has been suggested elsewhere, the key is that you have fun with it. I had a good time with The Last Jedi. But I admitted in December and I admit it now -- yes, the movie has flaws. If people can't see that and take this whole thing too seriously, maybe its time to find another franchise.
