Antimatter converter assembly?

[blssdwlf]

I apologize for my overly long response to EVERYONE's comments. I kept putting it off and the discussion kept getting longer. haha.

LOL, yeah it's an interesting subject with lots of detail. Good discussion all around

I agree that they are probably the same system. However, it seems that the function of the lithium crystals is different from the dilithium crystals. In Mudd's Women the lithium crystals are destroyed because excessive power is being pulled through them. Whereas dilithium crystals, for the most part, seems to be described as the source of power. Now perhaps, in-universe, these lithium circuits got switched out for something else (more reliable) later on. But at least for me, they seem distinct enough in function that I'm going to consider the dilithium crystals and lithium crystals to have two separate functions, and they probably existed alongside each other in the "converter assembly."

IMHO, the Lithium Crystal and Dilithium Crystal circuits work the same way. We have the dialogue about pulling power through the crystal circuits but there is this one line after 3 crystals are blown:

From "Mudd's Women":
FARRELL: We're clearing the asteroid belt now, Captain.
KIRK: Deflector screen down, Mister Farrell. Save the power.

That line only makes sense if the last crystal circuit is also providing power rather than just transporting power, IMHO.

Do we even know what the energizer is? I can only find two references to it that aren't from the Movie Era. The first is in relation to the circuitry that re-amplifies the dilithium crystals. The second is when the "main energizers" are damaged by the Doomsday Machine. Are they even the same thing? There seems to be little information on what a system known as an "energizer" does.

In real-world terms, an "energizer" supplies energy (electrical, etc). In "The Alternative Factor", the crystals were in an energizer presumably either providing energy to the ship or to the crystals or both. In "Doomsday Machine", the main energizer going down also meant the loss of warp power. Since the warp engines depend on the crystals then we can connect the main energizer as containing crystal circuits that are connected to the warp engine usage.

Mmm. Not quite convinced of that. But I already touched on that above. Though I don't think we can reliably use TWOK here because the systems were probably different. Perhaps they realized that the DCCA setup wasn't the best, and increased the battery capacity to allow firing of phasers from batteries. Plus the conversion from caseless to vcased torpedoes allowed them to be fired with very little energy expenditure.

In my head canon I imagine that Kirk's Enterprise underwent a few upgrades and refits over the years. Transitioning from Lithium to Dilithium energizers, installation of photon torpedoes, upgraded shields post-"Balance of Terror", engine rooms redesigned over 3 seasons, new bridge module post-WNMHGB, etc...

Lithium crystals were only in one episode.

You are correct. I had lumped in the "Lithium Cracking Station" from WNMHGB where they adapted the station's power packs to the Enterprise's engines.

 

[Mytran]

Wow, so much to read through! Will try to give a more thorough reading and response later today, but a couple of thoughts:

Hmm, maybe. On one hand, we know late stage the men get delusional but at this early point he's very eager to please so I would think that he would be as honest with her as possible to get "rewarded". But, even if you ignore him, her understanding is very TNG, the "crystals let you control the reaction [where the matter and antimatter mix]."

I agree that the scene was written with TNG in mind, but in-universe we really have no idea was mental state Kelby was in at the time. We do know however, was technology was like the following century and it is not the TNG setup - Kelby's statements should be understood in that context IMO.

The detail here that says TNG is "How do you regulate positron flow in your dilithium matrix?" Again, only TNG-related thinking has the antimatter being regulated by the dilithium. It's one of the key differences between TOS and the TNG and TNG-related spinoffs. Unless we alter events in TOS to "TNG-ify" them then they do not fit. Or alternatively, hand-wave it off and say the TOS-TOS Movie era used totally different technology for reason X but later on discarded it because it made the ships too fast

The dilithium matrix in TOS converts the output of the M/AM reactor. Positron flow seems be a part of the process, even if it was never mentioned until this specific conversation. Either way, nothing Kelby says here insists that dilithium crystals on the NX-01 must mediate the M/AM reaction, TNG-style.

Yes. This is why many people assume that the Phoenix used a fission reactor to power it's warp drive. But there are mentions of "plasma injectors", "warp plasma conduit", and "warp core." So take that for what you will. I'm trying to devise a non-TNG warp system that uses these terms to describe a more primitive warp technology.

There's a thread on the BBS where someone did lengthy calculations to determine how much power could be generated from a fission reaction (which wouldn't be enough for FTL travel) and that the Phoenix was too small for a fusion reactor, leading to the conclusion that antimatter must have been involved in that first warp flight. If so, it is unlikely that dilithium was part of the process.

 

[uniderth]

IMHO, the Lithium Crystal and Dilithium Crystal circuits work the same way. We have the dialogue about pulling power through the crystal circuits but there is this one line after 3 crystals are blown:

From "Mudd's Women":
FARRELL: We're clearing the asteroid belt now, Captain.
KIRK: Deflector screen down, Mister Farrell. Save the power.

That line only makes sense if the last crystal circuit is also providing power rather than just transporting power, IMHO.

Hmmm. I'm just not seeing it. I guess I'm just looking at it from an electronics perspective. The ship is drawing more power than the crystals can handle. When the other three are burned out, even normal operation becomes too much of a draw for one crystal. Like, if I was trying to draw 11 Amps through a wire rated for an 10 Amps. It might hold up for a while but eventually it will fail.

Lowering the deflector screens would be like turning off some of the current draw to reduce current from 11 Amps to 9 Amps. Now the wire is better able to handle it.

Also we have this:

SPOCK: The entire ship's power is feeding through one lithium crystal.
KIRK: Well, switch to by-pass circuits.

SCOTT: But it's frustrating. Almost a million gross tons of vessel depending on a hunk of crystal the size of my fist.
SPOCK: And that crystal won't hold up, not pulling all our power through it.
KIRK: Well, Mister Spock?

So it is explicitly stated as "feeding through", and "pulling our power through."

But then again, it's fiction so it can be anything. It could grill cheesebrugers if the writers wanted. And I think we all have to squint and tilt our heads at times to get things to make sense. So if you want them to be a dilithium alternative, go for it. But just know that you're wrong. Haha. I'm kidding.

In real-world terms, an "energizer" supplies energy (electrical, etc). In "The Alternative Factor", the crystals were in an energizer presumably either providing energy to the ship or to the crystals or both. In "Doomsday Machine", the main energizer going down also meant the loss of warp power. Since the warp engines depend on the crystals then we can connect the main energizer as containing crystal circuits that are connected to the warp engine usage.

I suppose it could be either. I always thought the wall bank system was for recharging the dilithium crystals. So it was (re)energizing the crystals. But I did notice that one is referred to as the "energizer/energizing circuit" while the other is referred to as the "main energizers" so perhaps they just have similar names. And the Engineering room center thing was where the crystals were used. There may have been more than one of those rooms.

In my head canon I imagine that Kirk's Enterprise underwent a few upgrades and refits over the years. Transitioning from Lithium to Dilithium energizers, installation of photon torpedoes, upgraded shields post-"Balance of Terror", engine rooms redesigned over 3 seasons, new bridge module post-WNMHGB, etc...

Yes, certainly there were some changes. And I think it's reasonable to assume some upgrades. As far as the exterior arrangement goes, I fall into the obscure "Enterprise could transform" camp. I think the bridge module could go up and down. The deflector could change size, spikes and balls on either end of the nacelles could extend, etc. I think this best takes into account the reuse of old footage throughout the series. Granted, as I said earlier there are some things you have to squint at, but frequent reuse of footage through out the series is hardly something you can just squint away.

You are correct. I had lumped in the "Lithium Cracking Station" from WNMHGB where they adapted the station's power packs to the Enterprise's engines.

So are you saying the "power packs" are lithium power circuits*? Because, I always thought the power packs had nothing to do with lithium, but instead were just equipment the station had for power generation.

*I just made that up.

There's a thread on the BBS where someone did lengthy calculations to determine how much power could be generated from a fission reaction (which wouldn't be enough for FTL travel) and that the Phoenix was too small for a fusion reactor, leading to the conclusion that antimatter must have been involved in that first warp flight. If so, it is unlikely that dilithium was part of the process.

Yeah, sorry I meant to say fusion. But I agree. The fan theories seem to be that the left over nuclear material from the warhead of the missile was used to generate the power. But I agree that it had to have anti-matter in some quantity. I think that it was a very small amount for a one shot burst.

Quick reply before I head of to work.

Spare crystals are mentioned in TAS, as is a "dilithium vault" -don't recall off the top of my head whether it was associated with spare crystal storage, but it's a safe bet.

KHHAAAANNNN!!!!! Seriously though, why does TAS have to screw everything up. That's why i only loosely regard it as canon. The way dilithium is treated in this episode is like non-rechargable batteries.

So maybe after Coridan joined the Federation and they started mining on Elas they had an over abundance of dilithium crystals and decided to bring along spares and not worry about recharging spent crystals.

Or the dilithium vault is a fancy word for the recharging area in "The Alternative Factor".

 

[blssdwlf]

I agree that the scene was written with TNG in mind, but in-universe we really have no idea was mental state Kelby was in at the time. We do know however, was technology was like the following century and it is not the TNG setup - Kelby's statements should be understood in that context IMO.

Fair enough on Kelby's mental state but I think that even though we know it is not like the TNG setup in TOS that it is very possible that ENT's setup is like TNG. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for technological fads to come and go so that early warp engines worked one way while later ones another and further in the future a refinement of early versions.

The dilithium matrix in TOS converts the output of the M/AM reactor. Positron flow seems be a part of the process, even if it was never mentioned until this specific conversation.

The question then is why would antimatter (positrons) flow through the "dilithium matrix" in TOS? We know in TWOK that when Spock lifts up the dilithium that he is bombarded by radiation but I would be surprised if it were antimatter. In the same vein, in TOS we've seen how antimatter flow is immensely dangerous ("That Which Survives") and none of that appears to be present whenever a dilithium paddle is ejected for inspection while the engines are running ("The Paradise Syndrome"). Instead, TOS presents dilithium to work somewhat further downstream of the m/am reaction with no antimatter present...

There's a thread on the BBS where someone did lengthy calculations to determine how much power could be generated from a fission reaction (which wouldn't be enough for FTL travel) and that the Phoenix was too small for a fusion reactor, leading to the conclusion that antimatter must have been involved in that first warp flight. If so, it is unlikely that dilithium was part of the process.

Did that thread take in account "Peak Performance" and the tiny amount of antimatter used for warp drive on the Hathaway? Even for a 2s jump to warp...

 

[blssdwlf]

Hmmm. I'm just not seeing it. I guess I'm just looking at it from an electronics perspective. The ship is drawing more power than the crystals can handle. When the other three are burned out, even normal operation becomes too much of a draw for one crystal. Like, if I was trying to draw 11 Amps through a wire rated for an 10 Amps. It might hold up for a while but eventually it will fail.

Lowering the deflector screens would be like turning off some of the current draw to reduce current from 11 Amps to 9 Amps. Now the wire is better able to handle it.

I get that but then how should have Kirk phrased it then? "Save the circuit" instead of "Save the power" would make more sense.

And I think your example with the wire brings up a great point - if the crystal burnt out before the physical circuit (because all you need to do is replace the crystal) then how much current is too much and is the crystal merely a fuse to be blown? And why are the bypass circuits not able to take as much current as the crystal circuits?

Also we have this:

SPOCK: The entire ship's power is feeding through one lithium crystal.
KIRK: Well, switch to by-pass circuits.

SCOTT: But it's frustrating. Almost a million gross tons of vessel depending on a hunk of crystal the size of my fist.
SPOCK: And that crystal won't hold up, not pulling all our power through it.
KIRK: Well, Mister Spock?

So it is explicitly stated as "feeding through", and "pulling our power through."

I guess this depends if you believe the crystal circuit is merely an energy transportation circuit which then begs the question why is the crystal there in the first place? The circuit itself apparently can survive the power load since it is the crystal that goes out first. The only reason I can think of the circuit itself being able to survive higher loads than the crystal can is if the crystal was able to deliver higher output power than input power because it stores energy like a capacitor.

Those lines about pulling power through it doesn't seem out of place if we use a laptop connected to the wall power outlet analogy:

"The laptop's power is feeding through that single lithium battery [which is being fed from the power the wall outlet.]"
"And that lithium battery won't hold up, not pulling all our power through it."

Yes, certainly there were some changes. And I think it's reasonable to assume some upgrades. As far as the exterior arrangement goes, I fall into the obscure "Enterprise could transform" camp. I think the bridge module could go up and down. The deflector could change size, spikes and balls on either end of the nacelles could extend, etc. I think this best takes into account the reuse of old footage throughout the series. Granted, as I said earlier there are some things you have to squint at, but frequent reuse of footage through out the series is hardly something you can just squint away.

Hey, preaching to the choir. I'm also in the "Enterprise could transform" camp

So are you saying the "power packs" are lithium power circuits*? Because, I always thought the power packs had nothing to do with lithium, but instead were just equipment the station had for power generation.

LOL, nah... I just connected "Liithium" between the episodes and the power packs as something separate since the Lithium was being cracked. I had not considered that it was using Lithium as a power source but now I could argue for it

Yeah, sorry I meant to say fusion. But I agree. The fan theories seem to be that the left over nuclear material from the warhead of the missile was used to generate the power. But I agree that it had to have anti-matter in some quantity. I think that it was a very small amount for a one shot burst.

Hmm... where did they get the antimatter from and how small do you think they could have a container?

KHHAAAANNNN!!!!! Seriously though, why does TAS have to screw everything up. That's why i only loosely regard it as canon. The way dilithium is treated in this episode is like non-rechargable batteries.

So maybe after Coridan joined the Federation and they started mining on Elas they had an over abundance of dilithium crystals and decided to bring along spares and not worry about recharging spent crystals.

Or the dilithium vault is a fancy word for the recharging area in "The Alternative Factor".

I don't consider TAS in the same universe as TOS but if I were to try and include TAS wouldn't the simple answer be that a dilithium vault was added *after* all the TOS episodes. There were no spare crystals in TOS because it wasn't added yet (they had to remove the bowling alley to make room.)

 

[Mytran]

The question then is why would antimatter (positrons) flow through the "dilithium matrix" in TOS? We know in TWOK that when Spock lifts up the dilithium that he is bombarded by radiation but I would be surprised if it were antimatter. In the same vein, in TOS we've seen how antimatter flow is immensely dangerous ("That Which Survives") and none of that appears to be present whenever a dilithium paddle is ejected for inspection while the engines are running ("The Paradise Syndrome"). Instead, TOS presents dilithium to work somewhat further downstream of the m/am reaction with no antimatter present...

Perhaps positrons are used to energise the dilithium in order to allow the energy transfer process? The truth is, we have virtually no information on the TOS engineering processes beyond very basic levels.

Did that thread take in account "Peak Performance" and the tiny amount of antimatter used for warp drive on the Hathaway? Even for a 2s jump to warp...

A tiny amount of antimatter is still loads more than even the most optimistic fusion reaction...

if the crystal burnt out before the physical circuit (because all you need to do is replace the crystal) then how much current is too much and is the crystal merely a fuse to be blown? And why are the bypass circuits not able to take as much current as the crystal circuits?
...
I guess this depends if you believe the crystal circuit is merely an energy transportation circuit which then begs the question why is the crystal there in the first place? The circuit itself apparently can survive the power load since it is the crystal that goes out first. The only reason I can think of the circuit itself being able to survive higher loads than the crystal can is if the crystal was able to deliver higher output power than input power because it stores energy like a capacitor.

The "transportation circuit" is the energy conduits which lead from the M/AM reactors in the nacelles, into the dilithium energy transformation systems. Naturally only a tiny portion of the reactor output is normally funnelled into the dilithium, but the potential is there to funnel more as the ship's needs demand, even to the point which might exceed a crystal's tolerances.

Those lines about pulling power through it doesn't seem out of place if we use a laptop connected to the wall power outlet analogy:

"The laptop's power is feeding through that single lithium battery [which is being fed from the power the wall outlet.]"
"And that lithium battery won't hold up, not pulling all our power through it."

An excellent analogy. Unlike your laptop though, Enterprise's engineers have the ability to disengage the safeties (i.e. the fuses) to draw extra energy from the nacelles (i.e. the wall outlet)

 

[TIN_MAN]

Sorry for the late responses but I had some technical difficulties and was offline for more than a few days.

@ Blssdwlf;

Considering we never actually saw the M/A-M reactor(s) in TOS, I don’t see how we can categorically state that they are not like TNG’s –in some way shape or form.

Perhaps if you cite some specific dialogue that led you to this conclusion, I could better understand where you’re coming from?

@ uniderth;

As I see it there is a difference between “draining” and “re-energizing” the dilithium and re-crystallizing them after they’ve completely burned out or fused etc. etc.

Burnout only occurs if crystals become severely or completely drained, or if overloaded with too much power, and the more depleted they become, the less power it takes to overload them?

Also, recharging dilithium is only possible if the crystals are not “burned out”; otherwise they have to be replaced completely.

In TNG+ they can re-crystallize the dilithium after burnout, thus spares are not needed.

As for the dilithium vault, I think this might be the area we see in “The Terratin Incident” where the so-called “big” crystals are shown (and associated with “Main” circuits which were previously distinguished from crystal connections in “the warp engine circuitry”)?

And on a general note, here’s some food for thought;

In “Day of the Dove” Scotty says the dilithium crystals are deteriorating rapidly and they will soon be without “engine power” –so no bypass circuits available apparently.

 

[blssdwlf]

@TIN_MAN, sure and no worries about any response being late. Here's my thinking as to why TOS M/AM reactor(s) are not like TNG's and it boils down to the dilithium crystals.

1. The TNG M/AM Reactors has a "dilithium reaction" in order for a reaction to occur. (Coming of Age")
2. TNG explicitly points out dilithium's function among their M/AM power: "[Geordi's] Starfleet specialty is antimatter power, dilithium regulators" ("Elementary, Dear Data")
3. In TNG matter and antimatter streams are injected directly onto the dilithium crystal facets to generate power ("Booby Trap", "Galaxy's Child").
4. In TNG the dilithium crystal is clearly seen in the articulation chamber that goes into the "dilithium crystal chamber". ("Skin of Evil")
5. Although in TNG, curiously the chamber seems to encompass the vertical "injector" part of what we think of the core is. ("Heart of Glory")

As you correctly point out, we never saw the M/AM Reactor(s) in TOS but we do see the dilithium crystals outside, as in exposed to the room, *while* the M/AM reaction is running in "The Paradise Syndrome" (and arguably in "The Alternative Factor"). Since the crystals can be seen outside while the reactor is running negates the possibility of a TNG setup since we know that in TNG the crystals needs be where the M/AM streams hit to operate and if it is missing there is no running warp core/engine.

So you see TIN_MAN, the very argument of not seeing the TOS M/AM Reactor breaks the TNG model because we see the dilithium outside while the reactor(s) are running in TOS.

Sure, you could introduce the idea that there is "another" set of dilithium crystals that are in the TOS M/AM reactors where we don't see but is problematic in that it introduces a ton of complexity for episodes where those crystals are in short supply like in "Elaan of Troyius" since they could just go pull some crystals from their shuttles.

@ Blssdwlf;

Considering we never actually saw the M/A-M reactor(s) in TOS, I don’t see how we can categorically state that they are not like TNG’s –in some way shape or form.

Perhaps if you cite some specific dialogue that led you to this conclusion, I could better understand where you’re coming from?

 

[DanGovier]

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party here, but this thread is fascinating and I wanted to pitch in

In my head canon it seems logical that the Refit Enterprise from TMP is technologically superior to its TOS roots, using the latest and greatest technology available to Starfleet at the time. The presence of the giant new Intermix core for one certainly suggests that the M/AM technology is far more evolved, and most likely quite different to what is used on TOS ships. Then we have the apparent standardisation of 'Warp Core' technology from TNG onwards, which again is another technological evolution. As such, this would suggest that the role and usage of dilithium crystal probably differs between TOS/TMP/TNG, and I doubt there can be a single unified theory for all 3 versions.

Just looking at page 60 in the TNG Tech Manual here in front of me, it says that the unique property of dilithium crystal is that it can interact with antimatter without suffering annihilation, and it is used to actually create the electro plasma stream by way of the A/AM reaction taking place on the surface of the crystal. It therefore makes sense that if you turn up the volume of M/AM entering the system to generate more power (greater volume of electroplasma), it could exceed the crystal's capabilities and burn it out.

That makes sense for TNG, but in TWOK we see Spock take the lid off of what I assume is supposed to be the reaction chamber? If we assume that there's a dilithium crystal inside the pedestal which Spock reaches in to 'fix', then this must be where the M/AM reaction takes place, and where the electroplasma is created. All that glowing energy shooting out into his face would likely be gamma rays, which is a highly radioactive byproduct of atomic annihilation/decay. This would explain Spock's immediate demise.

That would then demote the Intermix core to being a glorified plasma conduit, 'mixing' the electroplasma generated by the main M/AM reaction with that generated by the fusion reactors on the impulse deck., and maybe also energising it further like a particle accelerator. This means the TMP/TWOK era Enterprise is let's say 90% M/AM and 10% fusion powered (totally made up numbers). So without the dilithium you can't generate enough electroplasma to power the warp nacelles or phasers, but those little fusion reactors can still achieve impulse speeds and keep the ship's lights on.

I also like the idea of there being an array of dilithium crystals with multiple M/AM reactions taking place, with the overall output being a combined plasma stream. Peak power output is when all crystals are working optimally, but performance drops if one or more crystals burn out.

 

[TIN_MAN]

First, let me welcome DanGovier to the party, better late than never, as they say. And your point about the refit movie Enterprise is a good one, and one which I kept meaning to bring up, but kept shoving to the back burner in favor of more immediate points to make.

Anyway, maybe I'm still not getting it, but since we "know" in TOS they had more than one M/A-M reactor and they needed multiple dilithium crystals to achieve "full power" then I don't see why it's not possible that when we see a crystal ejected, such as in "The Paradise Syndrome" it's merely one moderator crystal from one reactor core -leaving the others to power the ship at reduced output? This would seem to satisfy the dialogue in this and other episodes, without precluding a similar role for dilithium to that of TNG.

Then there's the example I cited above from "The Day of the Dove" where the dilithium crystals (plural) are deteriorating, resulting in the loss of "engine power". Since no mention is made of "bypass circuits" doing an end run around the dilithium altogether, and they apparently have not burned out their converter assembly and thus it is presumably still working, then either bypass circuits merely switch from one dilithium circuits to another, or perhaps there's some other (in-universe) explanation which we have yet to take into consideration which can reconcile this with other TOS tech references.

 

[Mytran]

Since the alien pinwheel can transmute phasers to swords, influence crewmembers to huddle together in the "lower decks" and change the composition of the bulkheads to an indestructible metal, I doubt that fusing the Converter Assembly (something that breaks down a lot!) would be a major challenge. Dilithium on the other hand has always been presented as something a bit special and as such takes the alien bit more time to affect.

Regarding the effect of the crystals themselves:

SCOTT: The ship's dilithium crystals are deteriorating. We can't stop the process.
KIRK: Time factor?
SCOTT: In twelve minutes, we'll be totally without engine power.

Assuming that dilithium crystals do the job of converting the output of the nacelles into a form useable by the rest of the ship's systems (including deflectors, structural integrity field etc), if the Converter Assembly is fused then the loss of the crystals will cut the systems off from the output of the engines, leaving them without engine power.

 

[blssdwlf]

@DanGovier - Yes welcome! And also food for your thought - the lid that Spock takes off of the pedestal in TWOK contained the dilithium crystals. Scotty uses an identical crystal container aka "dilithium crystal sequencer" to replace the Klingon one in TVH. You can compare the two by clicking here.

@TIN_MAN, yes, I noted the scenario of what if there were separate dilithium crystals that were in the M/AM reactors in TOS like TNG but that introduces new problems.

For example, "Elaan of Troyius" would play out differently:

SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair.
SCOTT: It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.
SPOCK: Captain, we can pull spare dilithium crystals from the shuttles onboard. There should be enough to power up one reactor.
KIRK: YES!!!! ​

And in "The Alternative Factor":

LAZARUS: That's just it, that's the key. That's the way to trap him. That's the solution. Captain, I beg of you. I plead, I demand. Give me the crystals.
KIRK: Out of the question. Those crystals are the very heart of the power of my ship... But we can give you some crystals from our shuttles. Will that work for you?​

And in "Day of the Dove":

SPOCK: All fighting must end, Captain, to weaken the alien before our dilithium crystals are gone.
KIRK: Wait, did you and Scotty check the dilithium crystals in our shuttles?
SPOCK AND SCOTTY: Uhm...​

And possibly "Mudd's Women":

SCOTT: One lithium crystal left, and that with a hairline split at the base.
SPOCK: Better rig a bypass circuit.
SCOTT: Can't. We blew the whole converter assembly.
KIRK: Get down to the shuttles and pull their crystals to replace the circuits. ​

Remember that even shuttles in TNG with M/AM reactors use dilithium ("Coming of Age") and in TOS, shuttles were warp capable and left an antimatter trail ("Metamorphosis"). That's why IMHO that a TNG-setup in TOS doesn't work when you think through all the ramifications.


Agreed @Mytran regarding "The Day of the Dove". Plus in my mind the lack of mention of the bypass circuits could also be due one or more of these circumstances:

1. The crew's ability to recall that the crystals can be bypassed were affected.

KIRK: A brother that never existed, a phantom colony, imaginary distress calls, the creation of these weapons. Do you sense a pattern, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: If the alien is creating these events, Captain, it is apparently capable of manipulating matter and mind.
KIRK: And now it has control of the Enterprise and taking us out of the galaxy. But why?
SPOCK: Captain, I am constrained to point out that since minds are evidently being influenced, we cannot know at this moment whether our own memories are completely accurate and true.​

2. The crew had limited control over the ship's engines because the Klingons had physical control over engineering preventing consideration of a bypass.

KANG: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.​

3. The crystal converter assembly was damaged during the initial take over by the entity.

[There is an explosion sound and the Enterprise shakes before rocketing away]
KIRK: Sulu?
SULU: Change in course. Accelerating. Helm dead. Auxiliary navigation dead.
KIRK: Override.
SULU: Nothing responds, Captain.
KIRK: Scotty, stop all engines.
SCOTT: I would if I could, sir.
...
SCOTT: The controls have gone crazy. Something's taken over.
...
KIRK: Scotty!
SCOTT: The engines, sir.
...
SCOTT: They've gone to warp nine, by themselves!
...
KIRK: Blow out the bulkheads if you have to. We need numbers. What kind of luck have you had controlling the ship's speed?
SCOTT: No, sir. She's a projectile at warp nine. And don't ask me what's holding her together.​

4. They already tried bypassing ("do whatever you can") but it didn't work so "there was nothing we can do about it"

SCOTT: Scotty, sir.
SCOTT: The ship's dilithium crystals are deteriorating. We can't stop the process.
KIRK: Time factor?
SCOTT: In twelve minutes, we'll be totally without engine power.
KIRK: Well, do whatever you can. Kirk out.
...
SCOTT: There's no change, Captain. The dilithium crystals are discharging.
SPOCK: There's nothing we can do about it.
...
SPOCK: We have nine minutes, fifty three seconds to power zero.​

The bottom line is that there is enough extraordinary circumstances created by the alien entity at both the matter and mind level that "Day of the Dove" isn't a reliable data point regarding the dilithium crystals, bypass circuits and power generation.

Has anyone given thought to where the phaser and shield power was coming from in "Elaan of Troyius" before the M/AM sabotage was discovered? At the time, the M/AM reactors were clearly off as they would have already blown up if they were powered up to deliver phaser power when "Battle stations" was called.

Anyway, maybe I'm still not getting it, but since we "know" in TOS they had more than one M/A-M reactor and they needed multiple dilithium crystals to achieve "full power" then I don't see why it's not possible that when we see a crystal ejected, such as in "The Paradise Syndrome" it's merely one moderator crystal from one reactor core -leaving the others to power the ship at reduced output? This would seem to satisfy the dialogue in this and other episodes, without precluding a similar role for dilithium to that of TNG.

Then there's the example I cited above from "The Day of the Dove" where the dilithium crystals (plural) are deteriorating, resulting in the loss of "engine power". Since no mention is made of "bypass circuits" doing an end run around the dilithium altogether, and they apparently have not burned out their converter assembly and thus it is presumably still working, then either bypass circuits merely switch from one dilithium circuits to another, or perhaps there's some other (in-universe) explanation which we have yet to take into consideration which can reconcile this with other TOS tech references.

 

[DanGovier]

@DanGovier - Yes welcome! And also food for your thought - the lid that Spock takes off of the pedestal in TWOK contained the dilithium crystals. Scotty uses an identical crystal container aka "dilithium crystal sequencer" to replace the Klingon one in TVH. You can compare the two by clicking here.

Hmm that's interesting, I haven't re-watched TVH in years so that fact completely escaped me!
I'm troubled by the crystals being in the lid, although of course when you look properly they quite clearly are in the lid. Just thinking on it purely from an engineering perspective, that means both the matter and antimatter streams are shooting vertically up the pedestal into the crystal, which presumably manages the M/AM reaction and arcs the electro-plasma back down. I've just thrown together a quick diagram to illustrate what I mean;

When Scotty says "We're just hanging on, sir. The main energisers out." in TWOK, I have to assume that the above diagram is what he's referring to. We then get this exchange;

SCOTT (on intercom): Just the batteries, sir. I can have auxiliary power in a few minutes.
KIRK: We don't have a few minutes. ...Can you give me phaser power?
SCOTT (on intercom): A few shots, sir.

I'm guessing the auxiliary power is the fusion reactors behind the impulse engines, and without the main energiser working there's not enough electro-plasma entering the system to charge the phaser capacitors or power the warp engines. Scotty later says "The energiser's bypassed like a Christmas tree, ...so don't give me too many bumps.", which I think means he's isolated the main energiser from the system and is trying to power everything from fusion reactors which can't handle the load. However, he also states "Admiral, I've got to take the mains off the line. The radiation..." later, which one would assume he already did to bypass the main energiser? Unless he just bypassed it without turning it off... half a job :P

Then Spock has his arm stuck into what appears to be an active M/AM reaction, unless that energy pouring out is some kind of backdraft of electro-plasma coming back up the pipe, or maybe a whole load of gamma radiation that was being held inside the pedestal until the lid was removed? Either way, his 'fix' most likely amounted to re-positioning the M/AM stream emitters so they were properly aligned and not leaking gamma radiation everywhere. Then, when he restored the lid the dilithium made contact with the properly aligned streams and began to once again produce the levels of electro-plasma needed to achieve warp speed.

Apologies if that got a bit rambly, I'm just thinking out loud

 

[uniderth]

I get that but then how should have Kirk phrased it then? "Save the circuit" instead of "Save the power" would make more sense.

Could be. But it reading it now, makes sense as a statement of conserving power, thought it does seem explicitly related to the lithium crystal situation. In fact the primary concern with using the deflector screens in the first place was not blowing up lithium crystals, but with overloading the engines. Curiouser and curiouser.

And I think your example with the wire brings up a great point - if the crystal burnt out before the physical circuit (because all you need to do is replace the crystal) then how much current is too much and is the crystal merely a fuse to be blown? And why are the bypass circuits not able to take as much current as the crystal circuits?

I guess this depends if you believe the crystal circuit is merely an energy transportation circuit which then begs the question why is the crystal there in the first place? The circuit itself apparently can survive the power load since it is the crystal that goes out first. The only reason I can think of the circuit itself being able to survive higher loads than the crystal can is if the crystal was able to deliver higher output power than input power because it stores energy like a capacitor.

Those lines about pulling power through it doesn't seem out of place if we use a laptop connected to the wall power outlet analogy:

"The laptop's power is feeding through that single lithium battery [which is being fed from the power the wall outlet.]"
"And that lithium battery won't hold up, not pulling all our power through it."

Interesting thoughts, though my initial thought was that the lithium crystals acted more like step down/up transformers. While I admit a comparison to electronics is problematic, I think we've agreed it could be used as a rough anologue. (NOTE: I'm assuming you already know this, but I'm including it anyway for other readers.) In electronics the components of power are voltage and current. (P = V*I) With a step down transformer the output voltage is lower but the current is higher. With a step up the voltage is higher but the current is lower.

So lets say the deflector circuit can handle 10spaceVolts(sV) and 100spaceAmps(sA) with a maximum of 120sA. While the lithium crystal takes in 100sV and 10sA form the dilithium crystals and converts it to 10sV at 100sA a 10 to 1 ratio. What you have is a situation where the 10sV deflector circuit would burn up if connected directly to the 100sV dilithium output. But could also handle more spaceAmps if the lithium crystals could be pushed a bit harder to output that much, eventually burning up. In this case we could justify not being able to directly connect the circuit to the dilithium output even though it can handle more power than the lithium crystal circuits. I know I'm totally going too far with this, but hey, I'm a Star Trek fan.

Hey, preaching to the choir. I'm also in the "Enterprise could transform" camp

High five.

Hmm... where did they get the antimatter from and how small do you think they could have a container?

Those are excellent questions and the obvious answers are: "The got it from somewhere"; and, "small enough to fit on the Phoenix".

I don't consider TAS in the same universe as TOS but if I were to try and include TAS wouldn't the simple answer be that a dilithium vault was added *after* all the TOS episodes. There were no spare crystals in TOS because it wasn't added yet (they had to remove the bowling alley to make room.)

I don't consider TAS to be canon. I view it as cartoonified version of "actual" Star Trek episodes. So I keep that in mind when trying to incorporate it into the larger scheme. So, while I try and keep as much as possible, I have no problem throwing anything in the garbage bin, in favor of a "real life episode" rewrite.

@ uniderth;

As I see it there is a difference between “draining” and “re-energizing” the dilithium and re-crystallizing them after they’ve completely burned out or fused etc. etc.

Burnout only occurs if crystals become severely or completely drained, or if overloaded with too much power, and the more depleted they become, the less power it takes to overload them?

Also, recharging dilithium is only possible if the crystals are not “burned out”; otherwise they have to be replaced completely.

In TNG+ they can re-crystallize the dilithium after burnout, thus spares are not needed.

I agree completely with this. In fact, the first recrystalization seems to have been done in "The Voyage Home."

As for the dilithium vault, I think this might be the area we see in “The Terratin Incident” where the so-called “big” crystals are shown (and associated with “Main” circuits which were previously distinguished from crystal connections in “the warp engine circuitry”)?

Could be. I don't necessarily accept those big crystals as canon, though I'm not entirely opposed to finding a reasonable way to make them fit.

And on a general note, here’s some food for thought;

In “Day of the Dove” Scotty says the dilithium crystals are deteriorating rapidly and they will soon be without “engine power” –so no bypass circuits available apparently.

We have no evidence of DILITHIUM Bypass Circuits at all. The only crystal related bypasses are those related to the lithium crystal circuits. There are overload bypasses for the matter/anti-matter reaction though.

Then there's the example I cited above from "The Day of the Dove" where the dilithium crystals (plural) are deteriorating, resulting in the loss of "engine power". Since no mention is made of "bypass circuits" doing an end run around the dilithium altogether, and they apparently have not burned out their converter assembly and thus it is presumably still working, then either bypass circuits merely switch from one dilithium circuits to another, or perhaps there's some other (in-universe) explanation which we have yet to take into consideration which can reconcile this with other TOS tech references.

I'll have to read through this one again before making a determination.

Hmm that's interesting, I haven't re-watched TVH in years so that fact completely escaped me!
I'm troubled by the crystals being in the lid, although of course when you look properly they quite clearly are in the lid. Just thinking on it purely from an engineering perspective, that means both the matter and antimatter streams are shooting vertically up the pedestal into the crystal, which presumably manages the M/AM reaction and arcs the electro-plasma back down. I've just thrown together a quick diagram to illustrate what I mean;


When Scotty says "We're just hanging on, sir. The main energisers out." in TWOK, I have to assume that the above diagram is what he's referring to. We then get this exchange;

SCOTT (on intercom): Just the batteries, sir. I can have auxiliary power in a few minutes.
KIRK: We don't have a few minutes. ...Can you give me phaser power?
SCOTT (on intercom): A few shots, sir.

I'm guessing the auxiliary power is the fusion reactors behind the impulse engines, and without the main energiser working there's not enough electro-plasma entering the system to charge the phaser capacitors or power the warp engines. Scotty later says "The energiser's bypassed like a Christmas tree, ...so don't give me too many bumps.", which I think means he's isolated the main energiser from the system and is trying to power everything from fusion reactors which can't handle the load. However, he also states "Admiral, I've got to take the mains off the line. The radiation..." later, which one would assume he already did to bypass the main energiser? Unless he just bypassed it without turning it off... half a job :P

Then Spock has his arm stuck into what appears to be an active M/AM reaction, unless that energy pouring out is some kind of backdraft of electro-plasma coming back up the pipe, or maybe a whole load of gamma radiation that was being held inside the pedestal until the lid was removed? Either way, his 'fix' most likely amounted to re-positioning the M/AM stream emitters so they were properly aligned and not leaking gamma radiation everywhere. Then, when he restored the lid the dilithium made contact with the properly aligned streams and began to once again produce the levels of electro-plasma needed to achieve warp speed.

Apologies if that got a bit rambly, I'm just thinking out loud

Yeah.... I'm not convinced the pedestal lid Spock removes in the matter/anti-matter reactor. According to my perception of how that works, it seems like he would have been instantly vaporized if he would have opened something containing that reaction.

 

[TIN_MAN]

USER=8545]@TIN_MAN[/USER], yes, I noted the scenario of what if there were separate dilithium crystals that were in the M/AM reactors in TOS like TNG but that introduces new problems.

For example, "Elaan of Troyius" would play out differently:

SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair.
SCOTT: It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.
SPOCK: Captain, we can pull spare dilithium crystals from the shuttles onboard. There should be enough to power up one reactor.
KIRK: YES!!!! ​

And in "The Alternative Factor":

LAZARUS: That's just it, that's the key. That's the way to trap him. That's the solution. Captain, I beg of you. I plead, I demand. Give me the crystals.
KIRK: Out of the question. Those crystals are the very heart of the power of my ship... But we can give you some crystals from our shuttles. Will that work for you?​

And in "Day of the Dove":

SPOCK: All fighting must end, Captain, to weaken the alien before our dilithium crystals are gone.
KIRK: Wait, did you and Scotty check the dilithium crystals in our shuttles?
SPOCK AND SCOTTY: Uhm...​

And possibly "Mudd's Women":

SCOTT: One lithium crystal left, and that with a hairline split at the base.
SPOCK: Better rig a bypass circuit.
SCOTT: Can't. We blew the whole converter assembly.
KIRK: Get down to the shuttles and pull their crystals to replace the circuits. ​

Remember that even shuttles in TNG with M/AM reactors use dilithium ("Coming of Age") and in TOS, shuttles were warp capable and left an antimatter trail ("Metamorphosis"). That's why IMHO that a TNG-setup in TOS doesn't work when you think through all the ramifications.

One more point before I let it go for a while.

Wouldn't these objections apply equally regardless of how the dilithium is used in TOS? In other words, those episodes you cite would still play out as you suggest, even if dilithium functions like a battery or capacitor, since dilithium from the shuttles would still solve the problem in each case?

Perhaps it's best to assume that the dilithium in the shuttles is not powerful enough for starships, or that perhaps it is "built in" permanently and cannot be removed etc. etc.

@uniderth,

Here's a thought, since you make a distinction between lithium and dilithium crystals and you are in favor of rewriting TAS when necessary; perhaps in "TTI" the crystals in the warp drive circuitry could be lithium crystals and the "big" crystals in the "main" circuits are are dilithium?

 

[blssdwlf]

Wouldn't these objections apply equally regardless of how the dilithium is used in TOS? In other words, those episodes you cite would still play out as you suggest, even if dilithium functions like a battery or capacitor, since dilithium from the shuttles would still solve the problem in each case?

That's the thing, those episodes played out as they were in TOS because dilithium wasn't abundant and required in every M/AM reactor like it is in the TNG universe. You break the TOS episodes if you try applying TNGisms to them and that makes things more complicated than simpler, IMHO.

Perhaps it's best to assume that the dilithium in the shuttles is not powerful enough for starships, or that perhaps it is "built in" permanently and cannot be removed etc. etc.

Or the simplest is to assume that TOS M/AM reactors don't require dilithium like TNG M/AM reactors do. This satisfies pretty much all the TOS episodes where lithium/dilithium* is in short supply since the shuttles wouldn't have a need to have dilithium crystals to operate while specialized systems on the Enterprise uses crystals.**

*I differ in @uniderth on how the lithium is counted and consider that dilithium replaced lithium and performed the same function so that the Crystal Circuits in the Crystal Converter Assembly in the energizers during the TOS series (and TWOK) could be bypassed when possible.

**This is still in flux for me so I'm going to ponder more on that

 

[blssdwlf]

Nice diagram and that is why I think if that is where the M/AM react that'd be very, very bad for Spock when he pops the top off. I still prefer to think of it as where radiation energy from the M/AM reactor at the bottom of the intermix shaft is sent to the crystals to be stored to energize the rest of the ship and facilitate warp engine operation.

When Scotty says "We're just hanging on, sir. The main energisers out." in TWOK, I have to assume that the above diagram is what he's referring to. We then get this exchange;

I'm thinking that the room has some machinery around it (nearer the hull) that was damaged and later on in the nebula Spock reconfigures the energy flow to the crystals to make the energizer usable again. This is how I imagine the energy situation was in the movie with my comments in brackets:

SCOTT: Just the batteries, sir. I can have auxiliary power in a few minutes.
KIRK: We don't have a few minutes. ...Can you give me phaser power?
SCOTT: A few shots, sir.
[Main and auxiliary power unavailable. But as far as we know, the mains can be bypassed later in the movie which is a difference between TWOK and "Elaan of Troyius". Enterprise's phaser banks fire very weak pulses on battery power. They just scar the hull and only blow up stuff that is exposed. You can compare to Reliant's earlier phaser shots that were on low power that easily penetrated thru Enterprise's hull.]
...
SPOCK: Engine room reports auxiliary power restored. We can proceed at impulse power.
...
KIRK: Mister Scott, do we have enough power for the transporters?
SCOTT: Barely, sir.
[At this point, main power is still out and whatever impulse power they had left is almost used up. Very similar to "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius". Battery power is probably low too since they have no good system to recharge it with.]
...
SPOCK: The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days, ...by the book, Admiral.
KIRK: Meaning you can't even beam us back?
SPOCK: Not at present.
[Everything is out and there isn't enough battery power for transporters. In "Mudd's Women" they were able to supplement with battery power but not in this case.]
...
KIRK: What is working around here?
SPOCK: Not much, Admiral. We have partial main power.
[Interestingly only "partial main power" was restored. Auxiliary power was a "may be" in Spock's estimate but it looks like that didn't happen. Now I wonder if it was damage to auxiliary power or simply that they didn't have time or spare power to recharge/refuel auxiliary power? Reliant on the other hand only has auxiliary power (and probably batteries) for the remainder of the movie.]
...
SCOTT: The energiser's bypassed like a Christmas tree, ...so don't give me too many bumps.
[This clarifies somewhat the repair that got them partial main power. The energiser is bypassed. This implies a working bypass cicruit. With the energizer bypassed, they're pulling directly from the M/AM systems but it's less than Reliant's auxiliary power output. We can look at these possibilities:

1. The M/AM systems were damaged so partial main power is just less than the undamaged auxiliary power of Reliant's,
2. Or output from undamaged M/AM systems actually produce less power than undamaged auxiliary power.​

The other thing to note is that I'm in the camp that Impulse power is capable of FTL. So to me, even though the Enterprise had partial main power and probably could accelerate to a low Warp speed to escape or fight, the Reliant with her intact Impulse drive could still catch up and hunt down the Enterprise. Thus the "out-run and out-gun" phrase.]
...
KIRK (on intercom): Damage, Mister Scott?
SCOTT: Admiral, I've got to take the mains off the line. The radiation...
[With additional damage, the main power is offline again. Maybe the bypass failed from too many bumps. The Enterprise proceeds to cripple the Reliant basically on battery power at this point. Whatever caused the mains to go offline apparently wasn't enough to take out the M/AM reactor(s) and warp engines are still intact because Spock later takes off the crystal top and adjusts something in the pedestal to get to start working again. My guess is that he restored a crystal circuit in the pedestal when he put the top back on to get the warp engines operational.]
...
CADET: Sir! The mains are back on line!
KIRK: Bless you, Scotty. Go, Sulu!
​

All IMHO

 

[Mytran]

...the lid that Spock takes off of the pedestal in TWOK contained the dilithium crystals. Scotty uses an identical crystal container aka "dilithium crystal sequencer" to replace the Klingon one in TVH. You can compare the two by clicking here.

That's a fantastic comparison. I can't believe I never saw the crystals inside there before. I always took that pedestal top to be a solid lump; it's fantastic that I'm still learning new things from this film after so many viewings. Maybe I should switch to BluRay?

Has anyone given thought to where the phaser and shield power was coming from in "Elaan of Troyius" before the M/AM sabotage was discovered? At the time, the M/AM reactors were clearly off as they would have already blown up if they were powered up to deliver phaser power when "Battle stations" was called.

At that time only the "pods" were rigged to blow, and even then only when going to warp. It's quite possible that the nacelles were able to trickle enough power to activate the shields & charge up the phaser banks without triggering the doomsday device.

... I'm not convinced the pedestal lid Spock removes in the matter/anti-matter reactor. According to my perception of how that works, it seems like he would have been instantly vaporized if he would have opened something containing that reaction.

Agreed - now that I know there's crystals in there it seems to be a simple update of the octagonal "thingy" in the middle of the TOS Engineering Set...which is strange, given that the layout of Engineering has undergone a complete new paradigm!

Perhaps it's best to assume that the dilithium in the shuttles is not powerful enough for starships, or that perhaps it is "built in" permanently and cannot be removed etc. etc.

Given how easily dilithium can burn out or otherwise be rendered inoperative, would this be a wise design?

 

[blssdwlf]

That's a fantastic comparison. I can't believe I never saw the crystals inside there before. I always took that pedestal top to be a solid lump; it's fantastic that I'm still learning new things from this film after so many viewings. Maybe I should switch to BluRay?

Hah yeah. On my TWOK DVD you can see the crackling inside but the crystals are alot harder to make out.

At that time only the "pods" were rigged to blow, and even then only when going to warp. It's quite possible that the nacelles were able to trickle enough power to activate the shields & charge up the phaser banks without triggering the doomsday device.

I suppose, although in my mind when they went to "battle stations" the ship would have been brought up to full power for combat operations. They were facing down a Klingon Battlecruiser... (If they were drawing on charged crystal power that could leave the warp system idling... )

Agreed - now that I know there's crystals in there it seems to be a simple update of the octagonal "thingy" in the middle of the TOS Engineering Set...which is strange, given that the layout of Engineering has undergone a complete new paradigm!

Another oddity is that the intermix chamber in TWOK right before Spock fixes the pedestal doesn't really change. I mean, it's doing the same glowy/swirly thing before and after Spock makes the fix. So does that mean the ship's M/AM reactor was online but energy just bottle-necked at the broken energiser when the bypass failed?

Now, what if it wasn't a new paradigm? What if what we're seeing in TMP/TWOK was just exposing the system with fancier transparent materials were before they were giant heavy opaque shielding?

 

[Mytran]

Now, what if it wasn't a new paradigm? What if what we're seeing in TMP/TWOK was just exposing the system with fancier transparent materials were before they were giant heavy opaque shielding?

Timo, is that you?

But seriously, that would require an internal reactor and many metres of super-conduit snaking throughout the ship. OK for TMP with it's cutting edge tech, but less so for TOS (IMO)