New uniforms in Season 2 Trailer

[Rahul]

On the other hand, I'm left wondering how many times we're really talking about. In the TOS era, for instance, certainly Starfleet contained a few commodores and admirals whose sense of their own importance might have been a bit inflated, and a captain or two who went off the reservation, but I don't recall anyone who actually betrayed or undermined Starfleet and/or the UFP. That didn't happen until STVI:TUC. Then in the TNG era, there was the conspiracy in "Conspiracy" (but that was actually alien parasites) and later "The Pegasus," in which an admiral had conspired with Starfleet Intelligence to violate a treaty agreement. In DS9 we got "Paradise Lost," in which an admiral conspired to commit a coup, and eventually "The Dogs of War," in which the Federation Council tacitly endorses Section 31's plan for genocide against the Changelings.

But unless I'm forgetting something, that's about it. (Setting aside the events of STID — gakk, thankfully an alternate universe! — and Treklit novels like, e.g., Dreadnought). By comparison with the level of dirty dealings conducted by the US government and military over the last few decades, it actually seems like a pretty clean record. Perhaps our impression of the Federation and Starfleet's shortcomings is exaggerated?

Ah, yeah, I'd forgotten about Nechayev's plans for Hugh, Kennelly's analogue to the Iran/Contra deal, and Dougherty's plot in Resurrection.

Seems like most of the Starfleet corruption centers on the TNG era, doesn't it?

Perhaps that's just an artifact of having more episodes overall, or perhaps it really does make a difference that TOS was written in the pre-Watergate, pre-Reagan years...

Any way you slice it, though, I think Section 31 takes things to another level. The notion that there's an established organization devoted to black ops suggests something more systematic than just an occasional corrupt flag officer or politician, and the notion that the UFP would countenance or even support such an organization is even more disquieting. Insofar as S31 exists, I prefer to think of it as a entirely rogue operation — not unlike how it was originally introduced.

I think that "Federation = evil Admirals" is something which comes mostly from DS9, because they went way too far with it (and thus were shunned in this regard by the producers of the other series). Like they did with their whole WWII-in-Space way of handling interstellar conflict. If you look at it through the more optimistic lense of other series, and ignore the parts of DS9 where it was portrayed as a much deeper rot (Section 31, Paradise Lost), you actually get a much more optimistic picture:

• The Undiscovered Country is the only true example - and that's at a turning point of the Federation, where even the hardliners weren't "truly" evil, but wanted to protect their version of the Federation from what they thought were purely evil klingons.. And it was one(!) Admiral. Others (even Kirk!) shared the same opinion - but wouldn't actually act in such a non-legal way
  
• "Pegasus", Nechayef's plan for the Borg, and "Insurrection" are clasic morality plays, where in each case you will find many people agreeing with the Admiral - in each case a means vs. outcome argument, where the means were the problem, but the outcome would clearly be beneficial (contrast to DS9, where even the "outcome" would be either a military dictatorship, genocide on "real" natural beings (and not assimilated cyborgs), or the existence of a clandestine organization beyond the laws). I'm still not on Picard's side in "Insurrection". Dougherty is only wrong because he went the asshole way of handling things.
  
• And Kennelly (much like the Captain in TNG's "The Wounded") were clearly "bad apples" in a good organization that needed to be stopped the exact moment they went off the rails - e.g. an example of where the organization actually worked, and the bad apples needed to be sorted out immediately.

Whatever it is: If you never saw DS9, the only evil Federation members you ever actually saw were people going rogue, against Federation principles on their own will, and against the will and direct orders of the organization (With the exception of Insurrection - where I'm squarely on the side of the Federation).

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I think that "Federation = evil Admirals" is something which comes mostly from DS9, because they went way too far with it (and thus were shunned in this regard by the producers of the other series). Like they did with their whole WWII-in-Space way of handling interstellar conflict. If you look at it through the more optimistic lense of other series, and ignore the parts of DS9 where it was portrayed as a much deeper rot (Section 31, Paradise Lost), you actually get a much more optimistic picture:

• The Undiscovered Country is the only true example - and that's at a turning point of the Federation, where even the hardliners weren't "truly" evil, but wanted to protect their version of the Federation from what they thought were purely evil klingons.. And it was one(!) Admiral. Others (even Kirk!) shared the same opinion - but wouldn't actually act in such a non-legal way
  
• "Pegasus", Nechayef's plan for the Borg, and "Insurrection" are clasic morality plays, where in each case you will find many people agreeing with the Admiral - in each case a means vs. outcome argument, where the means were the problem, but the outcome would clearly be beneficial (contrast to DS9, where even the "outcome" would be either a military dictatorship, genocide on "real" natural beings (and not assimilated cyborgs), or the existence of a clandestine organization beyond the laws). I'm still not on Picard's side in "Insurrection". Dougherty is only wrong because he went the asshole way of handling things.
  
• And Kennelly (much like the Captain in TNG's "The Wounded") were clearly "bad apples" in a good organization that needed to be stopped the exact moment they went off the rails - e.g. an example of where the organization actually worked, and the bad apples needed to be sorted out immediately.

Whatever it is: If you never saw DS9, the only evil Federation members you ever actually saw were people going rogue, against Federation principles on their own will, and against the will and direct orders of the organization (With the exception of Insurrection - where I'm squarely on the side of the Federation).

Commodore Stone in Court Martial was perfectly happy to sweep a murder under the rug to protect Starfleet's reputation...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But they've also said S31 is "part of the original (Earth) Starfleet charter". Must have been some language somewhere that mentioned it.

The actual wording in the charter made vague allowances for bending the rules at times. It gave no authorization for what Section 31 actually became.

In any case, since the Earth Starfleet is a different organization from the Federation Starfleet, the original charter is no longer valid anyway.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The actual wording in the charter made vague allowances for bending the rules at times. It gave no authorization for what Section 31 actually became.

In any case, since the Earth Starfleet is a different organization from the Federation Starfleet, the original charter is no longer valid anyway.

Tell that to Section 31.

 

[Tuskin38]

In any case, since the Earth Starfleet is a different organization from the Federation Starfleet, the original charter is no longer valid anyway.

Section 31 probably got the same wording into the Federation Starfleet charter.

 

[danellis]

Section 31 probably got the same wording into the Federation Starfleet charter.

I always figured it was a case of them "creatively" interpreting some legitimate wording - it's probably actually the same clasue that creates the regular StarFleet Intelligence.

dJE

 

[Tuskin38]

I always figured it was a case of them "creatively" interpreting some legitimate wording - it's probably actually the same clasue that creates the regular StarFleet Intelligence.

dJE

I think that's implied.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Starfleet Intelligence is a whole 'nother bag of snakes. At least they are a legitimate organization. SI has rules it must follow, a budget it must justify, a population it must answer to, and - perhaps most important of all - it reports to the President of the Federation. Section 31 doesn't have any such restrictions, and there's nothing more dangerous to a democracy than that.

And no, Starfleet Intelligence doesn't gain its authorization from some obscure clause in a document that's not even valid anymore. SI is valid because the actual, real, current, entire Federation charter SAYS it is.

 

[Tuskin38]

And no, Starfleet Intelligence doesn't gain its authorization from some obscure clause in a document that's not even valid anymore.

Who says it didn’t find its way into the Federation Starfleet charter?

Doesn’t Sloan say something about the charter?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Doesn’t Sloan say something about the charter?

For reasons which I hope would be obvious, you can never take Sloan at his word.

 

[cooleddie74]

Although Harris more than two centuries prior says pretty much the same things and even points to the specific article in the Earth Starfleet Charter that permits the organization to exist under the established framework of law. If Sloan is telling half-truths or even outright lies in the 2370s then Harris must also be playing fast and loose with the facts in the 2150s.

Or both are telling the truth but just slightly shading it to their own ends.

 

[fireproof78]

Although Harris more than two centuries prior says pretty much the same things and even points to the specific article in the Earth Starfleet Charter that permits the organization to exist under the established framework of law. If Sloan is telling half-truths or even outright lies in the 2370s then Harris must also be playing fast and loose with the facts in the 2150s.

Or both are telling the truth but just slightly shading it to their own ends.

Which is probably closer to the truth is them manipulating the facts to serve their own ends.

 

[Noname Given]

IIRC, TAS was only ever considered "non-canon" in the first place due to the meddlish meddling of Roddenberry's meddlesome lawyer at a time when Roddenberry was in such poor health that he could no longer lucidly handle such matters on his own!

Kor

Um no. TAS was declared non-canon because there was a rights dispute between Paramount and (when it existed) Filmation <-- which was the company that produced TAS. Because Paramount didn't want to embroil their new (at the time in 1987) Star Trek: The Next Generation in this mess; TAS was officially de-canonized and writers told NOT to include any characters or previous story elements from TAS in their scripts.

When Filmation folded, all rights to TAS reverted to CBS/Paramount and at that point, TAS was officially re-canonized.

 

[Tuskin38]

TAS was officially de-canonized and writers told NOT to include any characters or previous story elements from TAS in their scripts.

Didn't stop them though.

Well I guess technically they didn't include and characters or story elements, but there were dozens of 'Easter egg' like references to it, mostly in DS9.

 

[DaveyNY]

Didn't stop them though.

Well I guess technically they didn't include and characters or story elements, but there were dozens of 'Easter egg' like references to it, mostly in DS9.

Filmation went belly up in 1989, well before DS-9 started using TAS Stuff.

 

[Tuskin38]

Filmation went belly up in 1989, well before DS-9 started using TAS Stuff.

Oh