The Borg "from a certain point of view"

[Lance]

On some level, the Borg are misunderstood.

Relentless? Unstoppable?

Yes, but...

They are mirrors, in a sense, of the Federation.

I believe as originally conceived in TNG, and to some extent they almost didn't lose this, the whole idea wasn't one of *conquest* -- adding species to the collective was (by their own admission) about adding other species to their pool of knowledge.

They do so in a blunt (some may say brutal) way, by actually absorbing those species into the hive mind. But that's what one might expect a literal minded computer society to do.

It almost begs the question, where did the Borg begin. What is their origin. Chicken and egg scenario: were they an intelligence that evolved accidentally, like Nomad in TOS or V'Ger in The Motion Picture? Were they born out of a computer mind that started out merely 'cataloguing' the uniqueness of all species, but which like Terminator's Skynet, eventually grew into this gargantuan thing?

Bearing in mind that again the original concept outlined in Q Who was that they were less interested in the Enterprise crew than they were in the Enterprise itself, it's technology. The cube's design was meant to suggest it'd been constructed higgeldy piggeldy over many years, that the physical Borg were merely manifestations of the technology rather than the other way around (this episode suggests that the organic lifeforms we call Borg are 'produced' clone like in some kind of nursery).

Yes I know intentions changed and what we think of as Borg changed. But was it ever, really, explained?

Or was their mission -- to add the distinctiveness of other cultures to their own -- almost benign, not too different to the Federation itself, but misunderstood as deliberately hostile rather than simply a machine mind being a little too literal minded?

 

[Tenacity]

Bearing in mind that again the original concept outlined in Q Who was that they were less interested in the Enterprise crew than they were in the Enterprise itself, it's technology

But was that to always be the case, or was that a borg cube that didn't have any need for additional drones at that particular time?

The same cube later could have been very interested in the crew of a ship they encountered.

 

[Lance]

It is true that (I think?) they talk about "adding your *biological* and technological distinctiveness to our own". So even then, there's an implicit suggestion they might assimilate species as well as technology.

Even that language suggests... well, maybe not a benevolent species, but not necessarily one that is (consciously) being malevolent either. They're literal mindedly trying to gather the knowledge of every species in the galaxy, like Nomad they've simply gotten a bit carried away with their 'mission' over time

The chicken and egg question becomes, were they a human species to begin with, that became entwined with cybernetics, or a computer species that started absorbing biology into itself as it went along? Who created them? Did they create themselves, or is the Queen indicative that a core species existed in the first place ala Dr Who's Cybermen?

 

[DonIago]

I'm pretty happy with the explanation provided by the Destiny trilogy of novels.

 

[The Wormhole]

They are mirrors, in a sense, of the Federation.

Well, yeah. Eddington caught onto this and delivered an awesome speech about it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think the Federation/Borg comparison is spurious, because the Federation gives you the option to walk away.

I was disappointed when Voyager never did a Borg origin story. I've always imagined it was some situation where technology invented for convenience or world harmony blew up into something it was never intended to be.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think the Federation/Borg comparison is spurious, because the Federation gives you the option to walk away.

I'm sure if a particular planet was needed badly enough, Section 31 would "convince" them to join.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I'm sure if a particular planet was needed badly enough, Section 31 would "convince" them to join.

If it made the difference between winning and losing a war, and they had to dispatch an anti-Federation leader to make way for a sympathetic leader, sure. But Section 31 don't seem to do this willy nilly, they focus on mortal threats to the Federation.

The Federation we see isn't one that forces conformity on all their member planets. They expect certain minimum standards like no slavery, no class discrimination. But basically Vulcans still have their own ways, every member planet still has its own unique ways. The Federation believes in being different, together, not in everyone being the same.

 

[The Wormhole]

That's the official Party Line. I don't believe the Federation is as open, accepting, and peaceful as their propaganda makes them seem.

 

[DonIago]

But Section 31 don't seem to do this willy nilly, they focus on mortal threats to the Federation.

Ehhh...in one of the novels a S31 agent suggested (or outright stated) that they'd been sabotaging a pre-warp civilization's attempts to perfect warp drive due to the race's extreme xenophobia. I.e. preventing them from becoming a problem in the first place.

 

[Lance]

Well, yeah. Eddington caught onto this and delivered an awesome speech about it.

I'd forgotten all about that, haha. I need to rewatch DS9 again one of these days

Eddington was a dick but my god he had a point sometimes

 

[Prax]

Yes, they do mirror each other.

Assimilate
verb
1. Take in and understand fully (information or ideas)

Marie tried to assimilate the week's events’​

• .1 Absorb and integrate (people, ideas, or culture) into a wider society or culture.

‘pop trends are assimilated into the mainstream with alarming speed’​

• • 1.2 Become absorbed and integrated into a society or culture.

‘the older generation had more trouble assimilating’​

"You..will..be..absorbed!"
​

*The Borg are expansionistic.
*The Federation(particularly Humans) are expansionistic.
-
*The Borg assimilate new species to improve their society
*The Federation assimilates new species to improve their society
-
*The Borg are selective about which species they assimilate. The species must offer an improvement to the collective, so they don't go around assimilating pre-warp civilizations, unless such species offer a biological incentive
*The Federation are very selective about which species they assimilate. They must reach a certain level of technology before even getting an introduction. To become a Federation member, there are many more requirements, which call for certain conformities.
-
*The Borg are explorers. They seek new life, and new civilizations...in the hopes of finding one that will benefit the collective.
-
*The Borg are not malevolent. They collectively believe they are a benefit to those they assimilate. (Although their enemies and victims would not agree)

"Why do you resist? We only wish to raise quality of life for all species."

*The Federation is not malevolent. They believe in peace, stability, and bringing the highest quality of life to their members.

(Many of the Federation's enemies see them in a more sinister light than we might)​

The differences are that the Federation's brand of assimilaton is cultural, political, and technological/scientific(and optional); while the Borg are directly "assimilating" biological lifeforms, and technology, by force.

Various information about Borg origins are littered throughout Voyager and TNG. They were once a regular civilization, but became all obsessed with the trans-humanist stuff, and went from there. It probably took many, many generations to get from that first step of technological implants/enhancements, to actually losing their identities. 1,000 years before the Star Trek timeline, they'd only assimilated a handful of species, and were not yet an unstoppable threat.

 

[johnnybear]

The Borg I would say probably started out on the same lines as humanity! But then they developed a central computer to take care of all their needs and it eventually took them over, so as the humans took care of it's needs! But before that happened they had already taken to the skies and outer space for exploration! The Hive mind which the computer evolved into soon realised the weakness and frailty of the humans it controlled and adapted them to a longer and more useful life by the use of cybernetics! Although in later stories this was replaced by nanite technology which was injected into a host body where micro machines replicated within the blood stream and the person became a virtual robot in himself!
We must not forget though that this was not the primary idea behind the Borg in their first appearance in TNGs Q Who! In that they seemed more interested in the technology of the ship and it's systems rather than the biological units infesting it! The idea of absorption or assimilation came with the third season episode Best of Both Worlds where Captain Jean Luc Picard himself was captured and forced to become one of their number, even giving him a new identity that of a Borg leader as such known as Locutus! This made the Borg even more scary to viewers as your whole personality could be replaced or even destroyed by these creatures! The Borg history has been a little convoluted due to different writers taking on new ideas and ignoring ones already set down earlier on in other series or movies!
JB

 

[DonIago]

Ehhh, I'm still okay with the Destiny explanation for their origins.

 

[SpyOne]

I'm not sure joining the Federation is really optional. It seems more like it is inevitable.
Which is another place where the Federation and the Borg seem like flip-sides of a coin: one says that you'll join eventually so there's no need to rush, the other says you'll join eventually so there's no need to wait.

I think the Federation doesn't even realize it is assimilating people sometimes. Are the moves towards gender equality in the Ferengi a natural development of their society, or an adaptation to better interface with the Federation?
Are we biased because we see the Federation as basically good? What we see as reasonable "minimum standards" might be seen by another as removing the unique qualities of their culture.

In the board game Supremacy, my brother discovered that it was possible for two (or more) players working together to manipulate the global commodities market for mutual profit. And it wasn't a zero-sum thing: more players meant more profits and if everyone participates then everyone wins.
Some players tried to resist joining, but all eventually joined willingly because those who joined grew stronger than those who did not.
But that game glossed over the cultural adaptation that joining would entail.

I think this might be the best explanation for why the Borg keep making all-or-nothing plays for conquest of the Federation instead of nibbling at the edges: they recognize the threat that any contact with the Federation poses. It's assimilate or be assimilated, and the way the Federation does that you might not even notice it happening.

 

[SpyOne]

I read an origin story for the Borg that I liked quite a bit.
It was back when Voyager was on the air, and allegedly this had been submitted as a script for Voyager and turned down, so the author put it online.
It had Voyager find an old (but clearly Borg) data storage device, and Seven managed to reconstruct the data into a holodeck program with, IIRC, major roles played by the regular cast because.... tech reasons.

I don't remember it well, but as I recall the proto-collective was a bit like an implanted smartphone, and there was a minority movement who opposed getting such implants, and the government was discussing whether, since everyone having an implant was of benefit to all, they should compel the dissenters to get them.
And of course the point was that they were at the edge of a slippery slope.

If anyone could help me find that story again, I'd be grateful.

Ehhh, I'm still okay with the Destiny explanation for their origins.

You've said essentially the same thing twice now.
Were you planning on offering some clue as to what that explanation of the origin of the Borg was, or was it your intention to seem like a spam-bot?
Edit: that came off a bit ruder than I meant it to, so I'll just be blunt:
The first time you posted it seemed a little rude. Posting it a second time seems intentionally rude.
That single sentence, without elaboration, contribues nothing to the discussion. In your post about Section 31 you did much better.

 

[The Old Mixer]

You've said essentially the same thing twice now.
Were you planning on offering some clue as to what that explanation of the origin of the Borg was, or was it your intention to seem like a spam-bot?

No need to get personal/insulting about it.

 

[XCV330]

That brings up an interesting idea: could digital life evolve on its own?

Most of the baryonic matter in the universe is plasma. Life as we know it cant live there, but we still know comparitively very little about plasma. If some form of plasma life using digital and quantum computing for thought processes developed, it might have no need to either make itself known to non-plasma life, or even pause to consider such a comparatively small member of the tree of life existed.

But if advantages were found to that kind of life, bridges would have to be made to take advantage. Such a drive to learn technology and understand and benefit from the harvest of advanced worlds would appear to be a machine-biological horror. To the originators it would just look like an exploration program.

 

[DonIago]

You've said essentially the same thing twice now.
Were you planning on offering some clue as to what that explanation of the origin of the Borg was, or was it your intention to seem like a spam-bot?
Edit: that came off a bit ruder than I meant it to, so I'll just be blunt:
The first time you posted it seemed a little rude. Posting it a second time seems intentionally rude.
That single sentence, without elaboration, contribues nothing to the discussion. In your post about Section 31 you did much better.

For the record, I don't come here to have the quality of my posts critiqued, but I see you've already had your wrist slapped for that, so that's all I'll say on the matter.

I didn't go into detail because I didn't want to spend the time writing up spoilery material unless anyone was actually interested in reading about it.

Perhaps just ask next time around? As it is, it remains unclear to me from your post whether you're actually curious or not.

 

[SpyOne]

I understand that dilemma. I spend a lot of time considering how much of a story I should post, even in synopsis form, weighing spoilers and post length against providing too little information.

I was in a bad mood, and I apologize for handling my point poorly. I could tell that what I was writing had a tone I didn't want, but when I couldn't figure out how to fix it, ... I posted it anyway. I will try not to fo that in the future: If it comes out angrier than I meant I will wait and try again later.

I am mildly curious about that story, but not in great depth. I probably won't ever read those books, but ....
If you decide that crafting a synopsis that isn't very spoilery isn't something that interests you, then I understand and it isn't very important.

But do you understand why two very similar very short posts was annoying?