Turnabout Intruder

[Phaser Two]

That's right. And there's a long-established technique in film where you see one thing while hearing another. The most obvious example is seeing the exterior of a skyscraper, and you can already hear sound from the scene inside the office, like a phone ringing or a conversation in progress. It gives the narrative a "sweeping along" feeling, like we're not wasting any time and we trust the audience to get it.

Good example. Another is whether we, the audience, hear the other side of a phone call or not. Sometimes we do, sometimes not, but if we do, I don't think it's necessary to demand, "How can we hear what this person is saying to Don Draper when Don is clearly not using a speakerphone?" Another example, closer to the voiceover, is non-diegetic music such as TOS' beautiful scores and library cues. There's no reason to demand, "Hey, where exactly are the horn players we can hear when Kirk notices the bridge crew 'slowing down' after Deela dopes his coffee? Were they hyperaccelerated too? Sitting near the navigation sub-systems station?" It's just part of the experience for the viewers.

 

[gottacook]

My apologies - I thought it'd be more appropriate than starting a new thread just for my minor comments. You can bust me down to Commander if you wish.

 

[diankra]

A wider question... there is apparently an episode where, in the absence of Kirk, Spock and Scotty, Uhura was scripted to take command, but the director insisted that Sulu do it instead.
Anyone know which it is? I can take a good guess, but it would be nice if anyone knows for definite.

 

[Methuselah Flint]

Any number!! Spock's Brain? Omega Glory? Savage Curtain? Tholian Web? Man Trap?

 

[johnnybear]

I wonder if Scotty was on an Aberdeen pub crawl during the events of The Omega Glory? I've always found it odd that he wasn't there to take command during Kirk's absence!
JB

 

[Commishsleer]

I have nothing bad to say about the acting or the moments the characters had. I meant only that all the characters (as defined by the script) were not likable (to me of course). That's a killer for any story when you can't find any character to like. Actually, the acting makes the best of the weird story and makes an episode that is passable and less objectionable if it were not the last episode.

The story needed some hero or strong character to resolve the situation. Instead, it is only the failing of the full personality transfer, caused by the fact that Kirk (in Janice's body) was not killed in time, that resolved the problem. It was basically everyone failing (including the murderers) until time was up. Spock, who could have been the lion that charges, because he "knows", lays down like a lamb. And for all of the furor of Sulu, Chekov, Scotty and Bones, they come up lame too and get outsmarted. And, the stupid red-shirts were going to let it all happen?

I 'liked' all the characters except Lester. Coleman and those weird redshirts quite willing to go along with a strange-behaving captain and kill all the senior officers aboard the Enterprise.
I liked McCoy and Scotty showing loyalty to Spock even though they didn't quite believe him. I felt that they had inadvertently inserted some good character development over the series - that McCoy and Scotty were willing to support Spock against Kirk (justifiably)

I find it difficult to believe that Starfleet would have the death penalty for mutiny. I know they used to have the death penalty for practically anything that happened in the ancient days of sailing. Do they have it nowadays in the Navy? Certainly they don't in my country. But even in a country like the US would they have the death penalty for someone who tried and failed to mutiny on say an aircraft carrier.
Lester/Kirk was claiming that Spock was insane so why not brig him or strand him on a shuttle (if he was too dangerous). Surely an immediate execution wasn't necessary and you wonder why anyone went along with it. Or perhaps its just the final episode redshirts revenge on everyone.
I think the log question is good. I think it should be at least credible. I know they did a few entries after the fact but that doesn't explain Lester revealing her dastardly plan. Perhaps she knew no one ever looked at the logs (Although I suppose they would if Kirk executed his top 3 officers) or perhaps she didn't care - being insane and all.
I'm also puzzled by Spock's actions as was Scotty. I think the rest of the crews failure to act was based on Spock's ineffectiveness. The crew had effectively lost their two top officers in a strange manner.

Its funny how easily Spock dealt with the 'Mirror Mirror' imposters but was so easily defeated here. I suppose he had to deal with the prejudices of the crew and the threat that Coleman/Lester would be able to kill Kirk in Lester's body at any time. Otherwise why didn't Spock bide his time and wait until Lester made a mistake?

 

[Qonundrum]

I've read many people put down Turnabout Intruder. I didn't recall it that well. But watching it now, it's not terrible. What are the big complaints about this episode. It's certainly better than the TNG's S2 finale.

My only complaint is that it gets to a point where there's no way to get around accusations of sexism. There was one line of dialogue that can fit into the theme of Lester's clinical insanity (which she conflates as "no woman can captain a ship") but later dialogue from characters, and I'll admit I have to see this episode again, pretty much trounces any possible salvation or spin as they pretty much confirm no woman can become captain.

Nor does it help when Lester's actions, especially when in Kirk and it's her personality, shows genuine insanity. Regardless if the episode was written as an attack on feminism, sexism, both, neither, burnt toast, or anything else.

Just a couple lines of dialogue and it would all have been a nonissue.

Even in 1969 when the best they could otherwise do is ignore the issue and let viewers reason the way they would want. They decide to point it out, the only thing missing would be giant day-glo pink signs that would have made Batman blush.

On the upside, arguably the only one this episode could get, the actors playing Lester and Kirk both give excellent performances when acting out the body-swap scenes. Not bad considering everyone knew the show's fate at that point. But the sexism doesn't work, no matter how it's cut. Chalk it up to late season 3, everyone knows the show is canceled, so they'll scribble out whatever to get the episode count dealt with. If there is a greater good that somehow came about because of TI, noting sexism in real life back then, that's even better.

 

[johnnybear]

The episode is only an oddity due to the prequel shows spoiling the continuity! Janice Lester does state that women cannot serve as Captains in Starfleet! Right or wrong that's it and Kirk doesn't seem to disagree with her! Now in the films and later shows like TNG that has been altered so why did the other shows argue with this point? Maybe because they are an altered reality?
JB

 

[dswynne1]

My question is this: if the transfer was permanent, would Kirk-in-Lester's-Body remain "Kirk"? Would Lester's body influence Kirk in some way long term?

 

[Methuselah Flint]

My question is this: if the transfer was permanent, would Kirk-in-Lester's-Body remain "Kirk"? Would Lester's body influence Kirk in some way long term?

How do you mean?

 

[Phaser Two]

I wonder if Scotty was on an Aberdeen pub crawl during the events of The Omega Glory? I've always found it odd that he wasn't there to take command during Kirk's absence!
JB

Totally. As a huge Scotty fan I really dislike it when he doesn't show up to take charge as 3IC. Interestingly he is absent from *both* Vulcan episodes, although each has dialogue about turning over command to him. That said I did enjoy Sulu getting a command opportunity in OG.

 

[Tenacity]

Janice Lester does state that women cannot serve as Captains in Starfleet!

Her statement, and Kirk agreement with it, can be taken a few different ways.

No women starship captains being one of them.

 

[johnnybear]

My question is this: if the transfer was permanent, would Kirk-in-Lester's-Body remain "Kirk"? Would Lester's body influence Kirk in some way long term?

I get what you mean. Kirk's body might have eventually calmed her mind down somewhat Or Lester's may have left Kirk's psyche a little paranoid after a few years! But for the course of this show I'd more than likely say that Lester would have done something silly and got herself killed while in Kirk and Kirk in Lester would have eventually have convinced the Federation heads of what had happened to her and been awarded a post on a Starbase!
JB

 

[Damian]

The episode is only an oddity due to the prequel shows spoiling the continuity! Janice Lester does state that women cannot serve as Captains in Starfleet! Right or wrong that's it and Kirk doesn't seem to disagree with her! Now in the films and later shows like TNG that has been altered so why did the other shows argue with this point? Maybe because they are an altered reality?
JB

I remember one of the novels addressed this. If I remember correctly, she was found not suitable to being a captain and she made up her mind that women couldn't become captain (or something to that affect). It led to her relationship deteriorating with him because he could not convince her otherwise. By Turnabout Intruder, going with that thread, I guess it could be inferred that he just gave up trying to convince her.

While not canon, the story provided a possible explanation why she said what she did and why Kirk didn't argue the point while there were in fact women captains.

 

[johnnybear]

Good call, Damo! But if there had been only TOS then there wouldn't need to be any continuity issues! ENT is mostly responsible for this I think with it's need to ignore things brought up in the TOS era! Proves that the alternate time reality idea!
JB

 

[J.T.B.]

Totally. As a huge Scotty fan I really dislike it when he doesn't show up to take charge as 3IC.

Agreed. Probably the most annoying for me is in "Arena," as we know Scotty is available.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Agreed. Probably the most annoying for me is in "Arena," as we know Scotty is available.

But on real ships, the Chief Engineer is busy doing his actual job, which is a pretty big one that needs attention, and the ship is steered by bridge officers. So maybe Arena got it right.

 

[J.T.B.]

But on real ships, the Chief Engineer is busy doing his actual job, which is a pretty big one that needs attention, and the ship is steered by bridge officers. So maybe Arena got it right.

But Scotty was able to leave engineering to take command many times. Not to mention that he seemed to be able to do the chief engineer job from the bridge, as well.

On real ships, whoever is next in line of command succeeds to command, no matter what department they are part of.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

But Scotty was able to leave engineering to take command many times. Not to mention that he seemed to be able to do the chief engineer job from the bridge, as well.

You're correct, but I'm suggesting that ones where Scotty takes over the bridge are something you'd almost never see in real life.

On real ships, whoever is next in line of command succeeds to command, no matter what department they are part of.

This gets to the reason that I think the chief engineer of a real capital ship would probably never, or almost never, take the bridge: because the captain and his second-in-command wouldn't both be boating ashore ("beaming down") together while the ship was under way and thus had to be commanded (steered) instead of just guarded by sentries at the dock.

Star Trek's frequent Kirk-Spock landing parties create a whole area of discussion for how realistic that would be. But they're the stars and they have to go where the action is.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At least "Arena" set up the landing party beam-down as what they thought was a visit to a friendly port for consultation purposes, Spock's concerns notwithstanding.