Organisation of the Klingon Empire

[Groppler Zorn]

I don’t think this has been explicitly discussed here (at least I hope I’m not retreading old discussions), but having just rewatched DSC I started wondering about the Klingon empire.

Sarek notes that the federation is fighting 24 enemies - the great houses - instead of one.

So what’s going on with the High Council? Who was chancellor? Did T’Kuvma usurp the chancellor before he was killed?

For a time it seemed like Kol was in charge, but after he was killed on the ship of the dead, the empire seemed to fall into disarray, despite conquering most of the federation.

Since we know that there is a chancellor in the 22nd century (M’Rek) and we know there will be one later in the 23rd (Gorkon), it stands to reason that there was such a leader during the time of DSC. Klingons seem to have little trouble installing leaders even when the old one becomes troublesome (c.f. When Gowron was deposed by Worf), so why wouldn’t someone step into the power vacuum left by whoever was in charge when the house leaders pledged to follow either T’Kuvma or Kol?

Infighting I can see happening between the 24 houses as we’ve seen this time and again in the empire (with the Duras conflict that erupted into the civil war), but there was always a high council and a chancellor. I wish we’d seen more of the internal machinations of the Klingon empire in DSC to understand why they were in such turmoil. And if T’Kuvma didn’t usurp power from the chancellor before the battle of the binaries, what was s/he doing while the leaders of the great houses started a war with the federation? And at the end does it mean that L’Rell is the new chancellor? Or has she installed herself as emperor?

Qapla’

 

[Lord Garth]

This is extremely loose, and might not be what the DSC writers are going for, but in early United States politics you had the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans during the late-18th and early-19th Centuries. By 1820, the Federalists had collapsed as serious competition and the Democratic-Republicans were the only major political party, with several ex-Federalists having crossed over. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" like they say. It was "The Era of Good Feelings" but it wouldn't last.

Without another party to unify against, the Democratic-Republicans began to turn on each other. By the 1824 Election, the party had split four ways. The different factions were represented by Andrew Jackson, John Quincy Adams, William Crawford, and Henry Clay. The two largest factions were Adams' and Jackson's. Then the Democratic-Republican Party dissolved the two main factions eventually formed into two new political parties: The Democrats and the Whigs (who later became part of the Republicans).

Then during the 1840s and 1850s divisions went from bad to worse. By 1860, the Democrats were split into the North and South, there were Republicans in the North, and other parties that rose to prominence along the way such as the Constitutional Union Party and the Know-Nothings. It was becoming a mess. Then, as we know, Civil War erupted.

I think the Klingons might've undergone a similar political upheaval where the High Council split apart into different factions because of some sort of falling out, and then it spiraled out of control from there. There's no unity because they can't agree on anything.

T'Kuvma wanted to step up to unite the Klingons again against a common enemy and now L'Rell has them united under a common threat. And, no, I don't think there's any chance at all L'Rell's control over the Empire will last. Something's just asking to happen.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

This is extremely loose, and might not be what the DSC writers are going for, but in early United States politics you had the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans during the late-18th and early-19th Centuries. By 1820, the Federalists had collapsed as serious competition and the Democratic-Republicans were the only major political party, with several ex-Federalists having crossed over. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" like they say. It was "The Era of Good Feelings" but it wouldn't last.

Without another party to unify against, the Democratic-Republicans began to turn on each other. By the 1824 Election, the party had split four ways. The different factions were represented by Andrew Jackson, John Quincy Adams, William Crowford, and Henry Clay. The two largest factions were Adam's and Jackson's. Then the Democratic-Republican Party dissolved the two main factions eventually formed into two new political parties: The Democrats and the Whigs (who later became part of the Republicans).

Then during the 1840s and 1850s divisions went from bad to worse. By 1860, the Democrats were split into the North and South, there were Republicans in the North, and other parties that rose to prominence along the way such as the Constitutional Union Party and the Know-Nothings. It was becoming a mess. Then, as we know, Civil War erupted.

I think the Klingons might've undergone a similar political upheaval where the High Council split apart into different factions because of some sort of falling out, and then it spiraled out of control from there. There's no unity because they can't agree on anything.

T'Kuvma wanted to step up to unite the Klingons again against a common enemy and now L'Rell has them united under a common threat. And, no, I don't think there's any chance at all L'Rell's control over the Empire will last. Something's just asking to happen.

Wow that kind of history applied to Star Trek sounds like the kind of story I’d want to see, thanks!

Given how rigid Klingon society is - at least in the way it has been depicted prior to DSC - it suggests that something seismic happened within the sociopolitical structure of the empire before the start of DSC to fracture the empire into quarrelling houses. Compared to early US history where the nation was still relatively young, the Klingon empire had been around and spacefaring since the 16th century iirc? I wonder what could have affected Klingon society to such an extent that it created the disarray T’Kuvma tried to exploit?

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't know the answer to that but the first thing that popped into mind was Smooth Foreheads. Which I don't think we'll see but it would've made a perfect source of division and internal prejudice.

 

[LutherSloan]

The show seems to imply that at the start of DSC the Empire was very loose and if there was a Chancellor he was likely not very powerful. Kol was just the head of one of the stronger Houses who took the opportunity with T'Kuvma's actions to seize power. This is all a lot different than what we are used to starting with TOS through TNG/DS9/VOY.
They never really get into why this is the case, and I'm not sure if they will.

 

[Tenacity]

the empire seemed to fall into disarray, despite conquering most of the federation

I don't think it was "the Empire" that conquered a big chunk of the Federation. I think it was individual great houses (and maybe lessor houses) using their own militaries to separately attack and grab pieces of the federation for themselves.

L'Rell has them united under a common threat

Until someone kills her and grabs the remote, or grabs the remote and kills her, or just kills her, or just grabs the remote.

Or simple ignores the fact she has the remote.

If several of the most powerful great houses go their own way, what's L'Rell going to do?

Destroy the Klingon homeworld?

 

[Lord Garth]

If several of the most powerful great houses go their own way, what's L'Rell going to do?

Destroy the Klingon homeworld?

^ Yup! You're right. I think you've just called how they'll answer the threat!

 

[Lord Garth]

ENT is not my strong suit, but there was an episode (I just looked up the title) called "Judgment". The one where they send Archer to Rura Penthe. "Martok" (I know that's not the character's name, but it's the same actor from DS9) tells tells Archer that the Empire is becoming more militant. "Martok" doesn't seem on board with the change. What if he wasn't alone?

The source of division could've been over the direction to take the Empire. It seems like in DSC, there are some Houses that are united. So the Empire might not be split up 24 ways. You have different groups of Houses that have banded together against other groups of Houses.

Every group wants to dominate over the other. If they're evenly matched, the conflict will go on forever. Which makes alliances -- and who you align with -- more important. And if one Klingon Faction gets help from one outside race, another Klingon Faction will find yet another race to ally themselves with. Maintain the "balance of power". Then they all just keep getting worn down. Until T'Kuvma says "Let's unite against the Federation!"

The way I just described the Klingons, it makes them sound more like the Kazon with their divisions. The Kazon-Ogla, the Kazon-Nistrim, etc.

 

[Prax]

...I came here just to make a Kazon joke... Too late.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

ENT is not my strong suit, but there was an episode (I just looked up the title) called "Judgment". The one where they send Archer to Rura Penthe. "Martok" (I know that's not the character's name, but it's the same actor from DS9) tells tells Archer that the Empire is becoming more militant. "Martok" doesn't seem on board with the change. What if he wasn't alone?

The source of division could've been over the direction to take the Empire. It seems like in DSC, there are some Houses that are united. So the Empire might not be split up 24 ways. You have different groups of Houses that have banded together against other groups of Houses.

Every group wants to dominate over the other. If they're evenly matched, the conflict will go on forever. Which makes alliances -- and who you align with -- more important. And if one Klingon Faction gets help from one outside race, another Klingon Faction will find yet another race to ally themselves with. Maintain the "balance of power". Then they all just keep getting worn down. Until T'Kuvma says "Let's unite against the Federation!"

The way I just described the Klingons, it makes them sound more like the Kazon with their divisions. The Kazon-Ogla, the Kazon-Nistrim, etc.

That’s one of my favourite Klingon episodes of ENT as it actually explores a little of Klingon culture in that era (other than them just being snarling villains like Duras). JG Hertzler is amazing in it - my favourite bit is where he asks Archer whether he thinks all Klingons are warriors. And Archer is like “omg I totes did!” Ironically I think that scene sums up the Klingon problem in DSC - where are the philosophers, the artists, the singers, the Klingons who *dont* want to fight? But yes, maybe they are the reason for the discord in the empire.

 

[lawman]

The source of division could've been over the direction to take the Empire. It seems like in DSC, there are some Houses that are united. So the Empire might not be split up 24 ways. You have different groups of Houses that have banded together against other groups of Houses.

Every group wants to dominate over the other. If they're evenly matched, the conflict will go on forever. Which makes alliances -- and who you align with -- more important....

See, this could have been interesting. It's what the producers seemed to be promising before the show actually launched, and what I was hoping to see (given the existence of the whole Klingon war plot, which I could've done without but which seemed foreordained). Some Game of Thrones-level political intrigue!

But we got exactly none of that.

 

[Gavin70]

JG Hertzler is amazing in it

Well what is he not amazing in?

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Well what is he not amazing in?

Well exactly. I think he secretly *is* a Klingon!

 

[Groppler Zorn]

See, this could have been interesting. It's what the producers seemed to be promising before the show actually launched, and what I was hoping to see (given the existence of the whole Klingon war plot, which I could've done without but which seemed foreordained). Some Game of Thrones-level political intrigue!

But we got exactly none of that.

If they’d have gone the GoT route with the Klingons you suggest here I’d have watched the hell out of it.

But at least we know that the mirror universe is ridiculously rigid in its cultural development from ENT to DSC to TOS so there’s that.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The last Klingon Emperor was in the mid-21st century (around the time of First Contact and after they first meet the Vulcans). The takeover of the Empire by a "warrior culture" is still a new thing (less than a generation or two) during Enterprise. So, it's still kind of a young Chancellory at the time of Discovery.

We don't have the specifics, but the entire point of removing the Emperor was to take power out of one singular person's hands and spread them amongst the various noble elites (Great House leaders). Maintaining a weak Chancellor is probably in the best interest of the Council. T'Kuvma wanted to unite the empire and lead them into victory, but did not bring up the Chancellor.

This war being so close to victory may be what unites the Council under a powerful Chancellor at last. Or maybe L'Rell installs Ash to the weak Chancellorship, and he promptly gets rid of her and reforms the position to something much more powerful.

 

[the Sisko]

Lets see: After Enterprise's "Divergence" the augment virus ends up infecting a majority of the empire (and somehow, humanity is not seen as a party). This causes divisions as non-infected Klingons see the infected as dishonored. A very small subset of the Klingons infected gain enhanced abilities, and look down on everyone as they see honor and culture as tools of control rather than virtues.

Over the next century, the Klingons withdraw from a vigorous foriegn policy as civil war reigns. The look of Discovery Klingons is from a early 23rd century movement to return to the look of ancient Klingons. The TOS look is from them being ruled by augment/human looking Klingons and embracing that image while becoming unified. The TMP-TNG look is from the ruling class finding out how to undo the augment virus and them returning to their natural looks.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Lets see: After Enterprise's "Divergence" the augment virus ends up infecting a majority of the empire (and somehow, humanity is not seen as a party). This causes divisions as non-infected Klingons see the infected as dishonored. A very small subset of the Klingons infected gain enhanced abilities, and look down on everyone as they see honor and culture as tools of control rather than virtues.

Over the next century, the Klingons withdraw from a vigorous foriegn policy as civil war reigns. The look of Discovery Klingons is from a early 23rd century movement to return to the look of ancient Klingons. The TOS look is from them being ruled by augment/human looking Klingons and embracing that image while becoming unified. The TMP-TNG look is from the ruling class finding out how to undo the augment virus and them returning to their natural looks.

I love this idea. I don’t think they’d ever do it - Star Trek references seem to be small and Easter egg like on DSC and something like this would need soooo much exposition. But I really wish they’d do it. Do you think the smooth head guys have D7s that look like, you know, D7s? Maybe the ships we see in DSC are ceremonial or belong to the rich upper class Klingons that can afford ornate ships that look like they’re carved out of bone?

 

[Lord Garth]

They can't even agree on what a D7 is. They're so divided. "We have a D7!" "No! We have a D7!" Sort of a meta-commentary on debates about Canon.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

They can't even agree on what a D7 is. They're so divided. "We have a D7!" "No! We have a D7!" Sort of a meta-commentary on debates about Canon.

Haha! I hope we never find out which D7 is bigger... we’d need a therapist to get involved