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The Avatar paradox.

GreenDragonKnight

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
I watched a little of James Cameron's new documentary about the history of sci-fi cinema the other night, and they were talking about Avatar (well, it is Cameron's show) and, anyway, it just struck me out of the blue. There's a paradox about Avatar I've never understood: on the one hand, it is hands down the most successful movie ever made, at least in terms of box office gross; but, by the same token, I have never, and boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages I do mean never heard anyone say they consider it to be a great movie. Nope. Mostly what I've heard is "Visually it is quite a treat, but story-wise it's nothing..." (Words to that affect).

As for me personally, I rented it back in 2013 to watch it just out of curiosity and as I did so I realized that I actually had seen it before: I saw it back in 1990 when it was called Dances With Wolves...:ack:
 
I saw it in theaters and it was one of the most miserable 3D experiences of my life. I don't like 3D films in general but with Avatar, I was constantly taking off my glasses because I kept getting a headache trying to watch it all. I only watched it as 3D because that was all that was available when I was stationed in Japan.

To make it worse, the plot was horrible and unoriginal (Dances with Wolves meets Fern Gully), populated with boring characters, and featured one of the most one-dimensional, stereotypical villains I've ever seen depicted on film.

Yeah, it was a technical achievement at the time but everyone moved passed it pretty damn quickly. My mind still boggles at the fact that Cameron wants to make four sequels to this mess. :wtf:
 
You have to respect its technical achievements but once you take the movie out of theaters it becomes extremely forgettable.
 
It's an exhilarating third act in desperate need of a better rest-of-the-movie. It's a decent enough pilot for an ongoing series, though. In Cameron's defense, both extremely belated sequels no one initially wants (Aliens, Terminator 2: Judgment Day) and extremely expensive projects that initially seem overly ambitious and foolhardy (The Abyss, Titanic) are where he excels.

In the Avatar sequels' favors: He co-wrote Avatar 2 with Josh Friedman (showrunner of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles) and Avatar 3 with Rick Jaffa & Amanda Silver (writers of Rise of the Planet of the Apes). On the other hand, Shane Salerno (uncredited re-writer of Alien vs Predator and credited writer of Aliens vs Predator: Requiem) co-wrote Avatar 4. It hasn't been announced who's writing or co-writing the final one.

All I'm trying to say is, while it's easy to write Cameron off as working on a disaster-in-progress, doing so has historically been the wrong call. He might be a grumpy a-hole that's tough to work/live with, but he's a grumpy a-hole that knows what he's doing creatively more often than not.
 
You have to respect its technical achievements but once you take the movie out of theaters it becomes extremely forgettable.
This exactly.

I was quite amazed in the theater in 3D. The highlight of my experience was when what's-his-face in avatar form first ventured into the jungle at night. The amount of detail and the extent to which the environment and the creatures in it were realized created an impressive immersive experience.

At this point, the wow-factor of the first-time theater experience has worn off, and the cliche-ridden story just offers nothing to get out of rewatching it on TV.
 
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As for me personally, I rented it back in 2013 to watch it just out of curiosity and as I did so I realized that I actually had seen it before: I saw it back in 1990 when it was called Dances With Wolves...:ack:
Avatar was one of those movies that just hit the right zeitgeist when it came out. I think it can only be really appreciated from the POV of the cinema at the time, it was this big screen 3D spectacle when 3D was hot that just kind of caught everyone's interest with its imagery. I work with a lot of people from other countries and despite it being a tech field most of them have little interest in sci-fi or fantasy movies and I remember all of them talking about seeing it or wanting to and talking about their relatives telling them to go see it and so on.
 
Why are people so hellbent upon bashing "AVATAR"? Why do so many people resent this movie? Because the villains were human invaders? Or because it had a pro-environmental issue? I've noticed that many films and television show that are pro-environmental tend to be bashed by the critics and public.

I mean . . . I knew that the plot wasn't that original. Although its ending was different from the one for "DANCES WITH WOLVES". But this bashing does not make sense to me.


You have to respect its technical achievements but once you take the movie out of theaters it becomes extremely forgettable.

Has it? People still talk about . . . even in a negative way. They've been doing this for the past eight to nine years.
 
Why are people so hellbent upon bashing "AVATAR"? Why do so many people resent this movie? Because the villains were human invaders? Or because it had a pro-environmental issue? I've noticed that many films and television show that are pro-environmental tend to be bashed by the critics and public.

I mean . . . I knew that the plot wasn't that original. Although its ending was different from the one for "DANCES WITH WOLVES". But this bashing does not make sense to me.




Has it? People still talk about . . . even in a negative way. They've been doing this for the past eight to nine years.
You know, maybe, just maybe, people are simply expressing their opinions. :shrug:
 
ETA: I swear, I wrote this entire below post without seeing LJones41's, because I have him on Ignore. But, on this matter, I think he's got a hell of a point.

I do mean never heard anyone say they consider it to be a great movie. Nope. Mostly what I've heard is "Visually it is quite a treat, but story-wise it's nothing..." (Words to that affect).
And yet, all kinds of mediocre to garbage movies, including the Harry Potter series, the DCEU (yes, Wonder Woman included), the latest Star Trek and Star Wars, etc., regularly get called "great." If it's got spaceships and mech suits and aliens and shit, a sizeable portion of geekdom is liable to call it "great" and eat it up. Christopher Nolan vomited up a rehash of 2001 crossed with an M. Knight Shyamalan script, and 64% of BBSers rated it an "A-" or higher. And yet, despite huge international success, widespread acclaim (83 on Metacritic and RT) in the press and even this very board (50% of BBS-ers rating it Excellent, with another 25% calling it Above Average), discussions of Avatar always seem to revolve around the notion that "hey, what if it was a mediocre flick all along?" Well, most pop culture bang-bang/pew-pew movies are mediocre. So what? Why focus on it?

Sure, maybe it's because Avatar made all the money, and Cameron has indeed been taking his sweet-ass time making tons of sequels in spite of overwhelming cultural indifference. But, I think an overlooked, key part of the equation is: it's a feel-bad movie. It's an environmentalist scream, in which we, as in, specifically American consumers, are the bad guys. It challenges us and makes us feel uncomfortable in a way we embraced at the time, because it was also a spectacular 3D novelty and an amazing theatrical experience, but, with the freshness gone, we're left with the CG that isn't as revelatory in 2D and the message, and we don't like to feel uncomfortable. So, we point and laugh at its very real flaws and shortcomings as the work of Great Art it never positioned itself as being - I'm looking at you, Chris "Give my 70mm PG-13 World War II theme park ride a Best Picture, please!" Nolan - and we breathe a sigh of relief, and go back for another hit of the Feel-Good Pop Culture pipe.

Look, I enjoyed Infinity War as much as the next MCU fan, but there's a movie that makes its villain an environmentalist genocidal maniac, and challenges absolutely nobody. (Where are all the accusations that it ripped its villain off of Dan Brown's Inferno, or Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six?) What blockbuster movies other than Avatar really challenge us? The Last Jedi, which briefly (seriously, blink and you'll miss it) suggests that both sides are profiting from the war? As in, the galactic war in which one side blows up multiple civilian planets, and the other side is full of saints? Oh, yeah, very subversive, a real critique of the military industrial complex, that flick. Wonder Woman, which painted WWI Germans as proto-Nazis for using chemical warfare, while completely omitting that the Allies also used those weapons, and had a happy ending in which Diana kills her enemy, but that's actually a great thing because she believes in the Power of Love? Pretty sure nobody was squirming in their seats over that movie (unless they noticed the glaring hypocrisy). Inception blew all out minds, but was there anything in that movie to think about once it ended apart from wondering if the goddamn top will fall or not? Anyone notice how brave Justice League was for critiquing its Evil Invading Alien Mosquito army? Yeah.

It's hip to crap on Avatar because Cameron dared to call us the monsters, the Parademons, the Empire, the Death Eaters, the Mad Titans, and had the audacity and cinematic mastery to make one of the best-selling movies in history doing so. Yeah, the dialogue ain't Shakespeare. What is? (Not fucking Netflix's Daredevil, tons of online nerds' slobbery wet kisses to the contrary, that's for goddamn sure.) But to completely overlook the movie's environmental, in-your-face challenge is to comically miss the big picture. IMHO.


Hugs!
 
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I don't even get the comparison to Dances with Wolves that people have been making, and I love Dances with Wolves. One of my favourite movies. And Avatar, original or not, I remember sitting in the theatre thinking how refreshing a movie it was compared to a lot of what was out there at the time. But even then, I'm not entirely sure it warrants sequels. But it was a hell of an experience and the scope of what it accomplished with its technology was amazing.
 
It was a bit long and the 3D inflames my depth perception issues, but I really enjoyed the movie. It was visually interesting, great sound track, good cast and characters.

When it’s on a TV I’ll leave it on to watch, I’m looking forward to the sequels and I wish every planet in Star Trek could have something of Pandora about it, except the desert ones.

It’s just a movie though, and I’ve seen far far worse.
 
Just my two cents.... Rewatched the other day after not having seen it for about two years. Basicly, meh..... Looks good, boring movie.
 
Lol... I like the movie. The fact that people still rag on this movie a decade later is hilarious to me. People hated it so much they went and made it the #1 bestselling Blu-Ray of all time (before the 3D Blu-ray even came out). Maybe it just got a little too mainstream for people. The Ubernerds hate Star Wars and Star Trek and Avatar and anything else they can now since the "normies" started watching science fiction films.
 
It's a flat-out brilliant fucking movie, and in addition to that there hasn't been another use of 3D since that comes close to being as good.

So, a lot of genre fans don't seem to love it - that's a big boo-hoo to a film so widely successful all over the world that after almost a decade the second most successful film in history remains barely an honorary runner-up. :cool:
 
And you know there are people starving on main street, USA too. Success does not equal quality. Neither does technological brilliance.
 
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