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[Rahul]

Other than that, I'll just disagree with the rather black and white statement of wheelchair on starship=stupid. That's just too black and white for me to agree with.

The point is: It's not black and white. The reason people arond here are raising concerns is because there's a tendency to get such a delicate topic completely wrong (aka "black and white"). And thus far, neither the creators nor honestly the fandom around here have given any reason to assume this topic will get handled with the care it deserves.

I think it should be entirely possible for someone on a starship to serve, despite being wheelchair bound. It's just incredible hard to pull off as a producer/writer without coming across as demeaning or offending. You have to balance both real-world problems (the treatment/marginalization of disabled people now), as well as fictional worldbuilding ones (what diseases in Star Trek could actually make you wheelchair-bound that aren't so completely malevolent that you still can work normally), and not fumble any of those.

And quite honest, at this point, I don't have the confidence in them pulling it off. I'm hoping for the best of course, finger's crossed and all. But right now, it looks more like another horrible crash in the making.

 

[Spot261]

From a warrior race who prides dying in battle and would rather die than be unable to fight.

And in fact the possibility of his suicide was a major feature of the episode

 

[dahj]

Artificial limbs are a thing NOW.

Star Trek is also being filmed NOW.

And NOW many people don't have the luxury of artificial limbs, or of getting "fixed" for a myriad of problems. To suggest that "worldbuilding" is more important than providing positive examples for such people to enjoy in their entertainment is frankly an insensitive, privileged and inconsiderate position.

 

[Spot261]

The point is: It's not black and white. The reason people arond here are raising concerns is because there's a tendency to get such a delicate topic completely wrong (aka "black and white"). And thus far, neither the creators nor honestly the fandom around here have given any reason to assume this topic will get handled with the care it deserves.

I think it should be entirely possible for someone on a starship to serve, despite being wheelchair bound. It's just incredible hard to pull off as a producer/writer without coming across as demeaning or offending. You have to balance both real-world problems (the treatment/marginalization of disabled people now), as well as fictional worldbuilding ones (what diseases in Star Trek could actually make you wheelchair-bound that aren't so completely malevolent that you still can work normally), and not fumble any of those.

And quite honest, at this point, I don't have the confidence in them pulling it off. I'm hoping for the best of course, finger's crossed and all. But right now, it looks more like another horrible crash in the making.

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried, that's the point being made here. On the contrary, it's exactly why it should.

 

[Rahul]

Star Trek is also being filmed NOW.

And NOW many people don't have the luxury of artificial limbs, or of getting "fixed" for a myriad of problems. To suggest that "worldbuilding" is more important than providing positive examples for such people to enjoy in their entertainment is frankly an insensitive, privileged and inconsiderate position.

"Oh look, here's a show about the future. There's a perfect future, where humanity has evolved. Also, people like you will still have to deal with the same shit like you everyday! Hope you enjoy that. Isn't that future pretty?"

Yeah... not very convincing.

 

[Awesome Possum]

The point is: It's not black and white. The reason people arond here are raising concerns is because there's a tendency to get such a delicate topic completely wrong (aka "black and white"). And thus far, neither the creators nor honestly the fandom around here have given any reason to assume this topic will get handled with the care it deserves.

I think it should be entirely possible for someone on a starship to serve, despite being wheelchair bound. It's just incredible hard to pull off as a producer/writer without coming across as demeaning or offending. You have to balance both real-world problems (the treatment/marginalization of disabled people now), as well as fictional worldbuilding ones (what diseases in Star Trek could actually make you wheelchair-bound that aren't so completely malevolent that you still can work normally), and not fumble any of those.

And quite honest, at this point, I don't have the confidence in them pulling it off. I'm hoping for the best of course, finger's crossed and all. But right now, it looks more like another horrible crash in the making.

The current show runners are doing a good job of showing a more diverse future than we’ve seen in past shows, I have faith they can continue to do so. The problem is the fandom, something that’s been made clear by this site on a regular basis. Honestly at times I hate to even call myself a Trek fans because of how certain other fans behave.

 

[Spot261]

"Oh look, here's a show about the future. There's a perfect future, where humanity has evolved. Also, people like you will still have to deal with the same shit like you everyday! Hope you enjoy that. Isn't that future pretty?"

Yeah... not very convincing.

I think you're missing the value that star trek has always brought to the table for people in the real world. It isn't about the future being perfect, it's about using a vision of the future to reflect on the world we live in. In doing so it has always strove to represent the human race in it's entirety, not some selective image of perfection.

You mentioned eliminating autism in the future, why do you think so many people considered Reg Barclay such an important character? He put neuro atypical people on the screen in a way that portrayed them as worthwhile, capable people who could be valued, not a scourge to be eliminated.

 

[fireproof78]

The point is: It's not black and white. The reason people arond here are raising concerns is because there's a tendency to get such a delicate topic completely wrong (aka "black and white"). And thus far, neither the creators nor honestly the fandom around here have given any reason to assume this topic will get handled with the care it deserves.

I think it should be entirely possible for someone on a starship to serve, despite being wheelchair bound. It's just incredible hard to pull off as a producer/writer without coming across as demeaning or offending. You have to balance both real-world problems (the treatment/marginalization of disabled people now), as well as fictional worldbuilding ones (what diseases in Star Trek could actually make you wheelchair-bound that aren't so completely malevolent that you still can work normally), and not fumble any of those.

And quite honest, at this point, I don't have the confidence in them pulling it off. I'm hoping for the best of course, finger's crossed and all. But right now, it looks more like another horrible crash in the making.

It is black it white, or has become so, because person in wheelchair=stupid has become a repeated statement in this thread. So, thus far, I have seen no reason to not have a person in a wheelchair on a starship, nor do I have misgivings about the production team handling it. If it fails, it fails. But, I'm not going to worry myself over their handling it, largely because I'd rather see someone in a wheelchair, than assume that no one ever uses wheelchairs now because the visual shorthand is more important to me as far as inclusion goes.

The current show runners are doing a good job of showing a more diverse future than we’ve seen in past shows, I have faith they can continue to do so. The problem is the fandom, something that’s been made clear by this site on a regular basis. Honestly at times I hate to even call myself a Trek fans because of how certain other fans behave.

Same here.

 

[Awesome Possum]

"Oh look, here's a show about the future. There's a perfect future, where humanity has evolved. Also, people like you will still have to deal with the same shit like you everyday! Hope you enjoy that. Isn't that future pretty?"

Yeah... not very convincing.

The future isn’t perfect because we’ve purged humanity of physical defects, it’s perfect because we celebrate each other’s differences and delight in the wide diversity of life and cultures throughout the galaxy. Prejudice and bigotry are gone, as are hunger and suffering while humanity looks down on our era as a dark age for the species.

It’s a shame that went over the heads of some fans and caused them to take the worst lesson they could from the franchise.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It's also widely off-topic, and seems to be used by some posters here to smear anyone that suggests a mere physical disability could and should be cured in the future of Star Trek...

No one is "smearing" you, they are reacting to what you're saying like people on a discussion board do. If you continue to run into a problem with how you think multiple people are interpreting your posts, maybe you should consider that the problem lies with either how you are expressing yourself or realize that people understand your views just fine but don't agree with them. But you have to stop overreacting and lashing out at people who challenge your conclusions.

 

[Rahul]

The current show runners are doing a good job of showing a more diverse future than we’ve seen in past shows, I have faith they can continue to do so. The problem is the fandom, something that’s been made clear by this site on a regular basis. Honestly at times I hate to even call myself a Trek fans because of how certain other fans behave.

I would call this show's "success" a massive mixed bag in this regard.
The characters (and I mean especially Burnham, Stamets and Saru - I don't really get some fans over-excitement for Lorca's ways) is the one thing that's still holding me to the show. So I think they did good there. But there are problems as well, especially with Burnhams character. Not so much herself, but the over-abundace of her having all backstories combined, and that the show overuses her giving speeches to pictures of her walking with a serious face through the ship.

Then there are the attempts where the show straight up failed. So far, that has been everything political. The klingons aren't te three dimensional people the creators promised, they are fucking cartoons. Lorcas "Make the Empire great again" was nothing but embarrasing. This show has DEEP problems in it's portrayal of torture. And a strange fascination with the depiction of apha males in the way Lorca's action were shown and excused pre-reveal.

Honestly, this show is socially way more regressive than every other Trek series have been before it. Especially politically. Not as an absolute, but where the show stands compared to it's contemporary concurring shows. The only thing were it (deservedly!) shines is in the social issues (minorities as main characters, acceptance of homosexuality) that have become the mainstream opinion in the last few years anyway.

You mentioned eliminating autism in the future, why do you think so many people considered Reg Barclay such an important character? He put neuro atypical people on the screen in a way that portrayed them as worthwhile, capable people who could be valued, not a scourge to be eliminated.

I friggin' love Barclay!

The future isn’t perfect because we’ve purged humanity of physical defects, it’s perfect because we celebrate each other’s differences and delight in the wide diversity of life and cultures throughout the galaxy. Prejudice and bigotry are gone, as are hunger and suffering while humanity looks down on our era as a dark age for the species.

It’s a shame that went over the heads of some fans and caused them to take the worst lesson they could from the franchise.

The one does not have to exclude the other. People that are working for medicine to move on and improve are NOT the enemy that needs to be stopped to change "gods perfect world" where we just have to accept that some people have to suffer and others not.

The notion that we can't actually change or improve in the future, and just have to accept the world as it is and be grateful for it, is a more than reactionary one. And one that is usually detriment to what is depicted in Star Trek.

No one is "smearing" you, they are reacting to what you're saying like people on a discussion board do. If you continue to run into a problem with how you think multiple people are interpreting your posts, maybe you should consider that the problem lies with either how you are expressing yourself or realize that people understand your views just fine but don't agree with them. But you have to stop overreacting and lashing out at people who challenge your conclusions.

Which completely misses the point of my criticism of that circlejerk where everything the showmakers decide has to be perfect and everything that disagrees or shows reservations somehow has to be morally inferiour and a bad human being that wants to abolish disabled people from the television screen. That wasn't about smearing "me", but the reaction the usual suspects had against ALL people formulating reservations about the way this show decides to handle delicate issue. That attitude was (and is) as laughably wrong as it is a cheap trick to end any discussion or dissent and avoid to have one's own worldview in any way challenged, because god forbid, there could be any thing problematic in it that hasn't been noticed...



Anyway, I'm off now. I whish for a fun discussion, I'll check in tomorrow or so again...

 

[BillJ]

But, I'm not going to worry myself over their handling it, largely because I'd rather see someone in a wheelchair, than assume that no one ever uses wheelchairs now because the visual shorthand is more important to me as far as inclusion goes.

Obviously people use them, Pike ends up in one. I just hope she doesn't turn into Melora from Deep Space Nine.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Keep that shit to yourself. You know that isn't true, and pulling up baseless accusations to not have to think for yourself and instead being able to get spoon-fed what is right and wrong by your perfect showmaster will not make you feel any better.

Which completely misses the point of my criticism of that circlejerk where everything the showmakers decide has to be perfect and everything that disagrees or shows reservations somehow has to be morally inferiour and a bad human being that wants to abolish disabled people from the television screen. That was (and is) as laughably wrong as it is a cheap trick to end any discussion or dissent and avoid to have one's own worldview in any way challenged, because god forbid, there could be any thing problematic in it that hasn't been noticed...

You've been asked to calm down about four or five times now in the thread, and now you're calling everyone who disagrees with you a circlejerk. Enough.

Infraction for trolling and flaming (single infraction). Comments to PM.

 

[Rahul]

Obviously people use them, Pike ends up in one. I just hope she doesn't turn into Melora from Deep Space Nine.

You thought Melora handled that topic bad? Oh, then obviously you must be predjudiced against disabled people and don't want them on tv! That has been reasonably proven in this thread! /S

Edit:

You've been asked to calm down about four or five times now in the thread, and now you're calling everyone who disagrees with you a circlejerk. Enough.

Infraction for trolling and flaming (single infraction). Comments to PM.

From the very quotes you just cited, it should be very obvious I didn't call "everyone" part of a circlejerk. There have been very many intelligent and insightfull comments been made opposing to my position. What I denounced is a small group of people using this:

I have to concur here, we are looking at someone who seems to really not want that disabled person on the show and is determined to find a justification

(...to which I answered with the first post you cited...)

...as a frequent tool of conversation used by the same persons to repeat over and over again to shut down any opposing arguments. Not just me.

/off thread now

 

[Refuge]

Yeah, they could easily do it that way, which is why I said I'm willing to wait and hold judgement. In general though, sitting for long periods is not good for the health of anyone, thus I'm not sure what advantage there would be to having an exoskeleton fold into a chair, rather than just...use a chair...as needed.

I'm truly surprised at the resistance to wanting a future where a disabled being has devices far more sophisticated than what we have now! Fuck it's a science fiction show! We must have our disabled character suffer a fate of being stuck in a chair because we want to have our disabled character look disabled?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

You thought Melora handled that topic bad? Oh, then obviously you must be predjudiced against disabled people and don't want them on tv! That has been reasonably proven in this thread! /S

Edit:


From the very quotes you just cited, it should be very obvious I didn't call "everyone" part of a circlejerk. There have been very many intelligent and insightfull comments been made opposing to my position. What I denounced is a small group of people using this:


(...to which I answered with the first post you cited...)

...as a frequent tool of conversation used by the same persons to repeat over and over again to shut down any opposing arguments. Not just me.

/off thread now

So you just doubled-down and repeated the same insults and misrepresentations again, and continued the personal remarks and overreaction after being told to stop again, and disregarded the "comments to PM" in the infraction post.

So you've earned another infraction for flaming. COMMENTS TO PM.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'm truly surprised at the resistance to wanting a future where a disabled being has devices far more sophisticated than what we have now! Fuck it's a science fiction show! We must have our disabled character suffer a fate of being stuck in a chair because we want to have our disabled character look disabled?

That’s not what anyone is saying at all.

 

[Refuge]

"Oh look, here's a show about the future. There's a perfect future, where humanity has evolved. Also, people like you will still have to deal with the same shit like you everyday! Hope you enjoy that. Isn't that future pretty?"

Yeah... not very convincing.

Agree, here's the future we have spore jumping space ships - got our priorities right!

 

[Spot261]

Agree, here's the future we have spore jumping space ships - got our priorities right!

I genuinely don't follow this?

 

[fireproof78]

I'm truly surprised at the resistance to wanting a future where a disabled being has devices far more sophisticated than what we have now! Fuck it's a science fiction show! We must have our disabled character suffer a fate of being stuck in a chair because we want to have our disabled character look disabled?

That isn't the point, at all.