Who should become the next Doctor after Whittaker?

[starsuperion]

Moffat wrote the comic relief skit, that had Joanna Lumley.
Big Finish has Arabella Weir.
The comics had an eight Doctor Who was female, but she turned out to be a fake.
Moffat allegedly read female actors for the role at some point, one was A big name, but I forget who. Putting all that aside for the moment..

I believe only females were read for the starring companion role practically every time. There was never a male in contention for the companion role in nu-who. Is this sexist? Are the companions not also the ‘star’ of the show, as Susan, Ian and Barbara all were, though things perhaps change a little in their focus. It’s not about pay either, as I believe Billie was on a higher scale than David.

Ultimately it’s about the character. That’s what this part of the discussion is about. British TV, even at the beeb, has plenty of female-led Dramas, has had for a good thirty years (Marple, Mapp and Lucia, Rosemary and Thyme, The Durrells, Prime Suspect, Murder Most Horrid...bit of a grey zone into comedy there, House of Eliot, Ashes to Ashes, that’s just off the top of my head.)
Sometimes it’s not about sexism.
I hope Jodie does well.

I loved Marple. Miranda is hilarious! I also loved the classics I grew up with. Fawlty Towers, Are you being served yet.
Red Dwarf, is a personal Fav, tho no strong female lead there. Still Lister and CAT are great role models.. The subject of race isn't the focus of the show, which is why it works so well. Gender is the new Black I suppose these days..

Other strong Female TV series I love (by love I mean I own their DVDs or watch saved on AMAZON and watch on occasion) Keeping Up Appearances, The Vicar of Dibley, and of course my personal FAV Bletchly Circle. The Drama surrounding the WWII era is very engaging and makes the series stand out in my mind.

I hope the series does well and stays clear of Rubbish.. but I am sure there are some who want Who to be "WOKE"..

Like I said, regardless of my differences with fellow board members here. The mid season Ratings will tell all, and surely by the finale of Series 11, we will know if it added more fans, or lost more, or just remained stagnant with maybe some fan swapping.. Time will tell. I would be interested to know those figures once the series is assessed.

Tho I am confident if there is a continued fall off in ratings, the usual suspects will be called out. Misogynistic-sexist (CIS) White Males, Racist White Males, (Take your pic) or BBC's lack of promotion.. Online ITV figures taking Ratings away, so on and so on.. all the usual Excuses will be plentiful I am sure.

 

[starsuperion]

We've been over this before. The reason people think you're sexist is because this was your reaction to Whitaker's casting:

Literally hours after the announcement was made you cried about SJWs and vowed to stop watching the show. That's why people think you're sexist.

And so fucking what if Chibnall specifically sought out a female Doctor? We've had a dozen men for the past fifty years, what's wrong with shaking things up and bring in a woman?

Wow.. are you trolling me?? Can you please stop? Yea, so my reaction was not thought out. I was shocked, because it confirmed what I saw the 2 seasons leading up to it. So, I admitted my mistake. That doesn't count. Once you let go something, forever will it darken your path. I can go back and pull some shite too that you've probably said in a moment of ignorant passion.. But I've got better things to do. I hope you can get past that.. I hope you can let go of your hate.. Cheers

 

[Professor Zoom]

We've been over this before. The reason people think you're sexist is because this was your reaction to Whitaker's casting:

Literally hours after the announcement was made you cried about SJWs and vowed to stop watching the show. That's why people think you're sexist.

And so fucking what if Chibnall specifically sought out a female Doctor? We've had a dozen men for the past fifty years, what's wrong with shaking things up and bring in a woman?

Thank for digging that quote up.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I loved Marple. Miranda is hilarious! I also loved the classics I grew up with. Fawlty Towers, Are you being served yet.
Red Dwarf, is a personal Fav, tho no strong female lead there. Still Lister and CAT are great role models.. The subject of race isn't the focus of the show, which is why it works so well. Gender is the new Black I suppose these days..

Other strong Female TV series I love (by love I mean I own their DVDs or watch saved on AMAZON and watch on occasion) Keeping Up Appearances, The Vicar of Dibley, and of course my personal FAV Bletchly Circle. The Drama surrounding the WWII era is very engaging and makes the series stand out in my mind.

I hope the series does well and stays clear of Rubbish.. but I am sure there are some who want Who to be "WOKE"..

Like I said, regardless of my differences with fellow board members here. The mid season Ratings will tell all, and surely by the finale of Series 11, we will know if it added more fans, or lost more, or just remained stagnant with maybe some fan swapping.. Time will tell. I would be interested to know those figures once the series is assessed.

Tho I am confident if there is a continued fall off in ratings, the usual suspects will be called out. Misogynistic-sexist (CIS) White Males, Racist White Males, (Take your pic) or BBC's lack of promotion.. Online ITV figures taking Ratings away, so on and so on.. all the usual Excuses will be plentiful I am sure.

So, in order to prove you didn't have a sexist reaction to a casting of a TV you are pointing to other female lead shows you like? Isn't that basically the "I can't be sexist, I have female friends" argument?

Wow.. are you trolling me?? Can you please stop? Yea, so my reaction was not thought out. I was shocked, because it confirmed what I saw the 2 seasons leading up to it. So, I admitted my mistake. That doesn't count. Once you let go something, forever will it darken your path. I can go back and pull some shite too that you've probably said in a moment of ignorant passion.. But I've got better things to do. I hope you can get past that.. I hope you can let go of your hate.. Cheers

That doesn't COUNT?
Listen, if you had posted that ONCE and then apologized as something not thought out, sure... then it wouldn't count.
But, you went on for PAGES.
And how is quoting you trolling?

 

[starsuperion]

*Ignores the freak show..*

Back on the topic of this thread...

I'm not quite sure who should play after whittaker. I mean, we don't even know what the new series is like, or how well or not well it is received. I suppose who should play the next Doc after should be determined by the circumstances the new doctor leaves the program and what would fit within the context of the storylines I guess. Tho, there's nothing wrong with making a wishful suggestion.

But if representation and identity is the single focus, rolls eyes, then find a really good actor of Asian descent. That's my vote. I just think Jodie is mediocre at best. Should have been a different actress, and I still say Moffat handled the situation leading up to it wrongly. Like a fish out of water, hamfisted. This should have been more organic, then the labelist snow flakes wouldn't have to hound my ass every post, cause my reaction would have been much different. Oh well can't please all the loonies at once. Not sorry either.

Don't like my initial reaction..oh well, sounds like a personal problem to me. I've explained it. Take it for what it is and move on.

 

[jaime]

I loved Marple. Miranda is hilarious! I also loved the classics I grew up with. Fawlty Towers, Are you being served yet.
Red Dwarf, is a personal Fav, tho no strong female lead there. Still Lister and CAT are great role models.. The subject of race isn't the focus of the show, which is why it works so well. Gender is the new Black I suppose these days..

Other strong Female TV series I love (by love I mean I own their DVDs or watch saved on AMAZON and watch on occasion) Keeping Up Appearances, The Vicar of Dibley, and of course my personal FAV Bletchly Circle. The Drama surrounding the WWII era is very engaging and makes the series stand out in my mind.

I hope the series does well and stays clear of Rubbish.. but I am sure there are some who want Who to be "WOKE"..

Like I said, regardless of my differences with fellow board members here. The mid season Ratings will tell all, and surely by the finale of Series 11, we will know if it added more fans, or lost more, or just remained stagnant with maybe some fan swapping.. Time will tell. I would be interested to know those figures once the series is assessed.

Tho I am confident if there is a continued fall off in ratings, the usual suspects will be called out. Misogynistic-sexist (CIS) White Males, Racist White Males, (Take your pic) or BBC's lack of promotion.. Online ITV figures taking Ratings away, so on and so on.. all the usual Excuses will be plentiful I am sure.

Doctor Who is already WOKE. Narratively, if not always behind the scenes. That’s the thing neither side of that argument get. The character is a literal SJW, but in the positive sense.

 

[Jinn]

Sorry to go back to this, but I was reading this thread and wanted to comment on this:

No because you and people on here keep pulling it back to Sexism. And where the heck did only "White male" come in? Idris alba would have been great! You keep missing the point I am trying to make, it was never about if a woman can play the part. It is about the ideology and agenda behind the casting and the constant lauding of the part being given to a female as if this was progress.. or some great victory. Which in a vacuum that argument may hold water, but there are tons of female led shows and movies out today that smash that to shreds. I think a Female Doctor can happen.. Sure.

I will assume that a 50/50 representation of males and females is in and of itself a goal, no matter what political side you're on, as TV should mirror reality somewhat. Excluded from that 50/50 goal would be for example shows that specifically deal with gender, for example something about the Women's Right Movement or any better example one can think of. Therefore if for example 40% of the characters were male there should be more male characters and vice versa. I hope you agree with me up to this point, as you said the argument you presented may hold water if it weren't for the high number of female led stuff.

However this page back up by this examination of reality shows, dramas and comedies on TV in 2016 and 2017 concludes that only 11% of ensamble shows have 50/50 male/female representation and that only 21% had more female than male representation, as opposed to 68% of programs that feature more males than females in the leading roles. Therefore it seems logical to me that more women should be casted, as they are currently under-represented. I was just wondering what you think about this.

 

[starsuperion]

Sorry to go back to this, but I was reading this thread and wanted to comment on this:


I will assume that a 50/50 representation of males and females is in and of itself a goal, no matter what political side you're on, as TV should mirror reality somewhat. Excluded from that 50/50 goal would be for example shows that specifically deal with gender, for example something about the Women's Right Movement or any better example one can think of. Therefore if for example 40% of the characters were male there should be more male characters and vice versa. I hope you agree with me up to this point, as you said the argument you presented may hold water if it weren't for the high number of female led stuff.

However this page back up by this examination of reality shows, dramas and comedies on TV in 2016 and 2017 concludes that only 11% of ensamble shows have 50/50 male/female representation and that only 21% had more female than male representation, as opposed to 68% of programs that feature more males than females in the leading roles. Therefore it seems logical to me that more women should be casted, as they are currently under-represented. I was just wondering what you think about this.

I agree with all of that. I suppose my main gripe is how it all comes off. If organic and non political, it's just what it is, then yes. But when it's blatant disingenuous political pandering, denigrating one class of people in favour of another, then no.

 

[XCV330]

RIchard Ayoade must be the Doctor at some point in my lifetime.

 

[Professor Zoom]

*Ignores the freak show..*

Back on the topic of this thread...

Sure... fair enough...

But if representation and identity is the single focus, rolls eyes, then

Well, that didn't last long, did it? Emphasis mine.
Do you you actually pay attention to what you write or is this all subconscious?
Is it any wonder we think what we do?
You are actually posting this... we aren't making it up.

Doctor Who is already WOKE.

Really?

Narratively, if not always behind the scenes.

I'll agree with you about narratively... but, let's take a look behind the scenes...

Of the 75 episodes that compromise Series 5 thought 10...

65 were directed by men, 10 by women. (Keep in mind, people would direct multiple episodes. The two episodes in series 8, were directed by the same woman.)

71 episodes were written by men, 4 were written by women. The first three series in this sample had 0 written by women.

In it's 50+ years of running, how many show runners have been women? 1, and that was at the start.

How many people of color have been companions? 2 (3 if you count Mickey.)

How many people of color have officially played the Doctor? 0
How many women have officially played the Doctor? 1.

Do you really want to continue with the argument that behind the scenes it's "woke"?

That’s the thing neither side of that argument get. The character is a literal SJW, but in the positive sense.

Then, great, you should be thrilled The Doctor is a woman... yeah?

I agree with all of that. I suppose my main gripe is how it all comes off. If organic and non political, it's just what it is, then yes. But when it's blatant disingenuous political pandering, denigrating one class of people in favour of another, then no.

Again I'll ask, is doing nothing ideologically free? Do you believe maintaining a status quo somehow free of ideology?

And, let's be clear: are you saying because ONE woman has been cast as the Doctor, somehow males have been denigrated?

 

[Jinn]

I agree with all of that. I suppose my main gripe is how it all comes off. If organic and non political, it's just what it is, then yes. But when it's blatant disingenuous political pandering, denigrating one class of people in favour of another, then no.

You previously said that the last two series felt like pandering and identity politics, but Jodie Whittaker was casted by Chris Chibnall (if I'm not mistaken, the internet wasn't that clear wether Moffat or Chibnall casted her) who wasn't involved with those previous two series at all and from what little I have seen from his previous work (I believe only early Torchwood) he didn't exactly seem like a feminist to me. Couldn't it be that he, like you, acknowledged the lack of shows staring women and wanted to cast one in the leading role for that reason? And if you acknowledge that problem and try to actively solve it, of course you have to, as you put it, "denigrate one class of people in favour of another". In order to reach that representation you have to favor the group currently unfavored, so to speak, until equality is achieved.

 

[jaime]

Sure... fair enough...



Well, that didn't last long, did it? Emphasis mine.
Do you you actually pay attention to what you write or is this all subconscious?
Is it any wonder we think what we do?
You are actually posting this... we aren't making it up.



Really?



I'll agree with you about narratively... but, let's take a look behind the scenes...

Of the 75 episodes that compromise Series 5 thought 10...

65 were directed by men, 10 by women. (Keep in mind, people would direct multiple episodes. The two episodes in series 8, were directed by the same woman.)

71 episodes were written by men, 4 were written by women. The first three series in this sample had 0 written by women.

In it's 50+ years of running, how many show runners have been women? 1, and that was at the start.

How many people of color have been companions? 2 (3 if you count Mickey.)

How many people of color have officially played the Doctor? 0
How many women have officially played the Doctor? 1.

Do you really want to continue with the argument that behind the scenes it's "woke"?



Then, great, you should be thrilled The Doctor is a woman... yeah?




Again I'll ask, is doing nothing ideologically free? Do you believe maintaining a status quo somehow free of ideology?

And, let's be clear: are you saying because ONE woman has been cast as the Doctor, somehow males have been denigrated?

Sigh.
I said it wasn’t progressive behind the scenes, at least, not always. But that’s a BBC thing, and a much wider discussion.
A huge chunk of DWs production staff have been gay, historically, and by the standards of its day, particularly the sixties and eighties, it wasn’t too bad for other minority’s groups either...though I am not up on the full minutiae. The modern series? Aside from a large number of gay men working on the show (I believe Cornell and Moffat once joked with each other at being the only straight men at an RTD era crew event, according to legend) then no, it’s not exactly up to its ears in female writing staff. It has had several female producers (since you count Saint Verity of Lambert as a show runner, they too must be taken into consideration)
But all of that is beside the point (I think the term Woke is horrible btw, for varieties of reasons, hence going with progressive.) because I don’t make that argument. I highlight the narrative, not the production side. So that’s a fight you are having with the air, because I did not say what you are responding to.

My thoughts on female casting? I have made that clear, but perhaps I best sum up with a simple sentence. I do not have any problem with the casting of a woman, in anything, anywhere, but I do feel that the character of the Doctor was serving an important role as a male character, and to an extent that being male allowed for certain things with the character that were positive and are now no longer possible. I also hope Jodie does well, and will watch to find out.
Is that crystal? I have no prejudice, whatsoever, against anyone, on the basis of gender, colour, orientation, unlimited rice pudding etc etc. I have even been known to do no more than tut at some odd political choices, though I do have a tendency to lay into those being outright...evil, I suppose...I abhor prejudice, particularly the isms that are born of claimed superiority, and ha been known to argue ferociously, angrily, in the face of such people. I have even confronted some people’s ideas about gender here and there in my time, again, face to face...
Like someone who had the Doctor as a role model growing up might do. Funnily enough.
So try taking people at their word, since that’s all there is on here, rather than firing off on assumptions. Stare too long into the abyss and all that.

 

[jaime]

RIchard Ayoade must be the Doctor at some point in my lifetime.

I can’t stand him for some reason. I think it’s his voice. It’s like a Chris Barrie impression, but Barrie can turn it off.

 

[jaime]

Sorry to go back to this, but I was reading this thread and wanted to comment on this:


I will assume that a 50/50 representation of males and females is in and of itself a goal, no matter what political side you're on, as TV should mirror reality somewhat. Excluded from that 50/50 goal would be for example shows that specifically deal with gender, for example something about the Women's Right Movement or any better example one can think of. Therefore if for example 40% of the characters were male there should be more male characters and vice versa. I hope you agree with me up to this point, as you said the argument you presented may hold water if it weren't for the high number of female led stuff.

However this page back up by this examination of reality shows, dramas and comedies on TV in 2016 and 2017 concludes that only 11% of ensamble shows have 50/50 male/female representation and that only 21% had more female than male representation, as opposed to 68% of programs that feature more males than females in the leading roles. Therefore it seems logical to me that more women should be casted, as they are currently under-represented. I was just wondering what you think about this.

See...Hollywood again. I wish there were figures easily findable for British TV, particularly what we used to call Terrestial. ITV in particular seems at a glance to do well on gender, while the Beeb and Channel 4 seem better with ethnicity. And stereotypes seem less for everyone over here vs American shows we import.

 

[XCV330]

I can’t stand him for some reason. I think it’s his voice. It’s like a Chris Barrie impression, but Barrie can turn it off.

I disagree. All computers everywhere should sound likr Richard Ayoade.

 

[jaime]

I disagree. All computers everywhere should sound likr Richard Ayoade.

I am old fashioned. I believe all computers should sound female. Though I have converted to preferring Australian, Indian or Welsh accents. My old phone was welsh. Nothing is more fun than having Gwyneth read texts and give weather reports.

 

[Jinn]

See...Hollywood again. I wish there were figures easily findable for British TV, particularly what we used to call Terrestial. ITV in particular seems at a glance to do well on gender, while the Beeb and Channel 4 seem better with ethnicity. And stereotypes seem less for everyone over here vs American shows we import.

I didn't find anything on the UK either, except for a study that came to the conclusion that there asre vastly more male directors of movies in the Uk, but that's something entirely different.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Sigh.
I said it wasn’t progressive behind the scenes, at least, not always.

You LITERALLY just said it was woke. Behind. The. Scenes.

Doctor Who is already WOKE. Narratively, if not always behind the scenes.

You do know what woke means, right?

But that’s a BBC thing, and a much wider discussion.

You don't think the show runner has a say on who is hired on their show? You think the BBC said, "No, mate, you can't have any female writers this series."?

A huge chunk of DWs production staff have been gay, historically, and by the standards of its day, particularly the sixties and eighties, it wasn’t too bad for other minority’s groups either...though I am not up on the full minutiae.

You do know being gay isn't the same thing as being a woman...right?

The modern series? Aside from a large number of gay men working on the show (I believe Cornell and Moffat once joked with each other at being the only straight men at an RTD era crew event, according to legend) then no, it’s not exactly up to its ears in female writing staff.

Or directors.

It has had several female producers (since you count Saint Verity of Lambert as a show runner, they too must be taken into consideration)

Let's look at the numbers!

For the sake of it, just the revived series....

11 producers-- 6 men, 5 women... NOT BAD! Let's look at the number of episodes! Among the men they were responsible for, 105 episodes... Among the women...41...

What about Executive producers?

10 Executive producers... 6 men, 4 women... not bad! Let's look at the numbers! Among the men, they were responsible for 233 episodes...(Obviously, overlapping. Moffat and Piers worked on the same episode.) Among the women... 103...

Considered!

But all of that is beside the point (I think the term Woke is horrible btw, for varieties of reasons, hence going with progressive.) because I don’t make that argument. I highlight the narrative, not the production side. So that’s a fight you are having with the air, because I did not say what you are responding to.

Again... you literally made that argument.
But, lets say you didn't.
So, NARRATIVELY they are progressive... shouldn't that be all more of an argument for them being progressive BEHIND the scenes?

My thoughts on female casting? I have made that clear, but perhaps I best sum up with a simple sentence. I do not have any problem with the casting of a woman, in anything, anywhere, but I do feel that the character of the Doctor was serving an important role as a male character, and to an extent that being male allowed for certain things with the character that were positive and are now no longer possible. I also hope Jodie does well, and will watch to find out.

Allowed for certain things that were positive? What does that even mean?

I have even confronted some people’s ideas about gender here and there in my time, again, face to face...

Have you ever confronted your OWN ideas?

Like someone who had the Doctor as a role model growing up might do. Funnily enough.

And because the Doctor is now being played by a woman she can't be your role model?

So try taking people at their word, since that’s all there is on here, rather than firing off on assumptions. Stare too long into the abyss and all that.

I do, and I am. I am merely responding to your posts. Because, as you said, that's all that I have to go on.

 

[jaime]

You LITERALLY just said it was woke. Behind. The. Scenes.



You do know what woke means, right?



You don't think the show runner has a say on who is hired on their show? You think the BBC said, "No, mate, you can't have any female writers this series."?



You do know being gay isn't the same thing as being a woman...right?



Or directors.



Let's look at the numbers!

For the sake of it, just the revived series....

11 producers-- 6 men, 5 women... NOT BAD! Let's look at the number of episodes! Among the men they were responsible for, 105 episodes... Among the women...41...

What about Executive producers?

10 Executive producers... 6 men, 4 women... not bad! Let's look at the numbers! Among the men, they were responsible for 233 episodes...(Obviously, overlapping. Moffat and Piers worked on the same episode.) Among the women... 103...

Considered!



Again... you literally made that argument.
But, lets say you didn't.
So, NARRATIVELY they are progressive... shouldn't that be all more of an argument for them being progressive BEHIND the scenes?



Allowed for certain things that were positive? What does that even mean?



Have you ever confronted your OWN ideas?



And because the Doctor is now being played by a woman she can't be your role model?



I do, and I am. I am merely responding to your posts. Because, as you said, that's all that I have to go on.

Either you can’t read, or my dialect is apparently alien to you. Or you are just spoiling for an argument.

Are you arguing it is not progressive to have less/no discrimination against gay people?
Do you not understand the part of the sentence that says ‘if not always behind scenes’ ? Let me clarify it, it means that I was saying it was not particularly progressive behind the scenes. But it was fairly progressive by the standards of its time.
Yes, the BBC does have a fair amount of sway over who writes for the show...you may notice they are all writers with previous Who experience, or previous TV/film experience, often with a fair chunk of BBC experience in there too. Even the Star name writers. The BBC boys club is entirely a thing.
Joss Whedon and Buffy were considered very progressive. Let’s see how that’s shaken out recently... hypocrisy is a thing. I don’t condone it, but then, at no point am I arguing for less women on the production staff. I can probably name several who I think should be on there, without thinking too hard about it.

Woke...isn’t it some piece of slang people borrow from an oppressed subculture to show how hip they are to social issues? I think it’s a daft word used that way. Usually it is a past tense description of awakening, no? I stick with progressive, perhaps because I am more used to it.

My OWN ideas? Are you suggesting I am somehow mistaken by believing all people should be equal on some very intrinsic level? Again, you come at this with a wrong, and frankly offensive assumption.

Read the words, don’t twist them to suit the assumption.

In terms of ‘what was possible’ it’s long, but if you really like I can try to discuss it when I have more time.

 

[The Wormhole]

Wow.. are you trolling me??

If you believe so, notify a moderator.