Excelsior confusion
- Thread starter Rayleo02
- Start date
Well, we don't know what the fairings on the Engineering hull actually do, so it's probable that each version of the Excelsior is optimized for a different role, thus the need for both versions. Something like Air Force and Navy versions of the same aircraft today.
Same reason Ford makes F150's still.
Sometimes you need a little ship, sometimes you need a big ship.
Real life reason: The model was only given the Enterprise-B upgrades in 1994, then they couldn't remove them so subsequent appearances (until creation of a new model for VOY: "Flashback") had to be that version.
In-universe answer, ummm.... maybe those extra side bits were mission-specific and not necessary on all ships of the class?
My recollection is that the 'flanges' on the Ent B hull were designed to be easily placed on there and removable, ie the unaltered Excelsior model was still under there in case they needed it in future. Did they really build a new model for Flashback? I didn't know that.
If I recall correctly, although intended to be removable, the glue they used meant they weren't.
And yes, they made a new, smaller model for "Flashback" with slightly different proportions (the secondary hull is a little thinner) and light up warp engines. The episode mixes shots from STVI with new ones and if you're looking for it, you can spot the differences.
The "Flashback" model was later scanned and used as a 3D model in DS9 fleet scenes.
Interesting 
With the light up nacelles and deflector, the Voyager version looks a little bit more 'TNG-ified', lol.
As to the thread question, if the Miranda class variants can all coexist simultaneously, it hardly stretches credulity for there to be two (perhaps three, given the Flashback model is slightly different again?) different Excelsior class types in service in the 24th century.
With the light up nacelles and deflector, the Voyager version looks a little bit more 'TNG-ified', lol.As to the thread question, if the Miranda class variants can all coexist simultaneously, it hardly stretches credulity for there to be two (perhaps three, given the Flashback model is slightly different again?) different Excelsior class types in service in the 24th century.
The Flashback version of the ship was really a rush job and IMO not even close to being as good looking as the first model. The secondary hull is to small for the rest of the ship and as a model builder I can tell you that a lot of the details on the Flashback model are based on the old AMT model kit which was vary inaccurate. Personally I hate that model and think it's ugly as hell!
As for the Enterprise-B design I also just thought it was a mission variant and never intended to replace the first design which is why we only ever saw a few of them.
When it come to the Enterprise-B add on there's a lot of bad info going around. One the rumor that the glue damaged the paint and that's why they didn't remove the extra parts, This is just stupid any glue will damage paint and the model builders at ILM aren't dumb enough to think that can just pull the E-B parts off and everything will be fine. Two Bill George the guy who designed Excelsior over saw the E-B refit and has said right here on the TrekBBS years ago that the top of the saucer and the bottom of the secondary hull aren't even the same parts used on the Excelsior and that he still had the old parts. Having studied the studio model pictures over the years I believe this to be true. It would also be a lot easier to change the model back if they ever needed too, just swap the parts out and repaint the teal back to it's original blue/grey color. Now there were some add on parts and I have read interviews with people taking about this and they did say that the cement used was like concert and it would damage the model to remove the add on parts, but I don't remember him saying what the parts were or saying that they tried to and I have to believe they knew better then to try it, these guys are experts with this stuff and had years in the business.
As for the Enterprise-B design I also just thought it was a mission variant and never intended to replace the first design which is why we only ever saw a few of them.
When it come to the Enterprise-B add on there's a lot of bad info going around. One the rumor that the glue damaged the paint and that's why they didn't remove the extra parts, This is just stupid any glue will damage paint and the model builders at ILM aren't dumb enough to think that can just pull the E-B parts off and everything will be fine. Two Bill George the guy who designed Excelsior over saw the E-B refit and has said right here on the TrekBBS years ago that the top of the saucer and the bottom of the secondary hull aren't even the same parts used on the Excelsior and that he still had the old parts. Having studied the studio model pictures over the years I believe this to be true. It would also be a lot easier to change the model back if they ever needed too, just swap the parts out and repaint the teal back to it's original blue/grey color. Now there were some add on parts and I have read interviews with people taking about this and they did say that the cement used was like concert and it would damage the model to remove the add on parts, but I don't remember him saying what the parts were or saying that they tried to and I have to believe they knew better then to try it, these guys are experts with this stuff and had years in the business.
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What really annoyed me about Jein's Excelsior model was not how it looked. It was that because "Flashback" required him to build it, we ended up getting a new model of an old ship (during a time when building new filming models was prohibitively expensive). When the DS9 VFX department scanned their physical models into CGI, Jein's model was one of them. So we ended up seeing a million old Excelsiors when we could have seen a newer design.
I've read where they added those parts on so that the Nexus energy ribbon would have something to damage instead of damaging the original model. This is the first I've heard of them not being able to remove the add-ons due to the glue used.
Around the time Generations came out, I heard the attachments were added so that they could properly matte/CGI in the exposed interior with Scotty et al. standing there looking for Kirk. My recollection was that it wouldn't have looked right with the original Excelsior model.
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Perhaps the people on the team for Voyager felt that restoring the old model, repainting it, and preparing it for filming was more trouble than just making a smaller, crappier model for TV. We certainly know that smaller models were preferred for use on TV due to the ease with which they could be handled and filmed.
It wouldn't surprise me if there was a miscommunication and nobody knew he had the parts.
The funny thing is they only ended up using the over sized Enterprise-B secondary hull for those shots, you can tell when they finish panning down because the over sized model has red stripes around the teal areas at the bottom of the ship. So looking back on it they didn't really need to change the design just to do that, just make an over sized Excelsior secondary hull instead. I do remember seeing a picture from not long ago that showed the damage to the E-B model to so I have to believe that they may have been planning more model shots that didn't end up in the movie. Don't get me wrong I love the Enterprise-B design I was just trying to point out some of the BS/ misconception that have been going around for to long.
I guess there's a misreading of the word "destruction" in the justification for the cheek fairings here.
The point wouldn't have been to apply add-ons that would not be destructive to the original model. The point, as dictated by the script of the movie, would be to apply add-ons that would enable the model to be destroyed on screen. That is, the model would need a big hole in it, and it would be much easier to do that hole in a purpose-built, all-new piece of plastic than in the preexisting bulk of the model.
The original intent apparently was to make use of an existing access hatch (in-studio, not in-universe) at the bow of the secondary hull, just above the deflector. Set design for the Deflector Control Room was initially done to match, with the machinery "centrally underfloor". But the cheek fairings gave much more liberty at applying the damage...
It probably was quite true the model people didn't want to "damage the original model" - but only because damaging the original model was hard work, while damaging the new fairings was simpler. Restoring the original would be a breeze, but OTOH there would be little demand for such restoration after this very final TOS movie.
(Whether the nacelle tips and saucer boxes were also added for the purpose of showing damage on the cheap, or merely because they cost very little extra, is another question. I guess the former was originally planned, but perhaps ultimately dropped; the cropped movie won't tell for certain.)
Timo Saloniemi
The point wouldn't have been to apply add-ons that would not be destructive to the original model. The point, as dictated by the script of the movie, would be to apply add-ons that would enable the model to be destroyed on screen. That is, the model would need a big hole in it, and it would be much easier to do that hole in a purpose-built, all-new piece of plastic than in the preexisting bulk of the model.
The original intent apparently was to make use of an existing access hatch (in-studio, not in-universe) at the bow of the secondary hull, just above the deflector. Set design for the Deflector Control Room was initially done to match, with the machinery "centrally underfloor". But the cheek fairings gave much more liberty at applying the damage...
It probably was quite true the model people didn't want to "damage the original model" - but only because damaging the original model was hard work, while damaging the new fairings was simpler. Restoring the original would be a breeze, but OTOH there would be little demand for such restoration after this very final TOS movie.
(Whether the nacelle tips and saucer boxes were also added for the purpose of showing damage on the cheap, or merely because they cost very little extra, is another question. I guess the former was originally planned, but perhaps ultimately dropped; the cropped movie won't tell for certain.)
Timo Saloniemi
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