...That's pretty much the exact *opposite* of what a pyrrhic victory is. A pyrrhic victory is one where the cost of victory is so high (typically exceeding those of the defeated) that it doesn't feel like a victory at all.
The ROTJ constructive criticism thread
- Thread starter Kor
- Start date
I caught the ending of RotJ on TNT the other day. Btw TNT had been airing The Force Awakens quite a bit recently.
I didn't know that scenes of celebration on other planets, that were not in the original movie, had been added to RotJ. First time that I remember seeing that.
But what bothered me was seeing Hayden Christiansen as the apparition of Anakin. Unlike the celebration scenes, I had seen this before in a previous updated version of RotJ.
I understand that Obi-wan and Yoda were outstanding and respected Jedis during their time. I had no problem with their apparitions appearing at the end of RotJ.
But Hayden Christiansen's Anakin is another matter. From what was shown in the prequel, HC's Anakin was somewhat of a lightweight. He never even came close to being respected the way Obi-wan and Yoda were.
Also, HC's Anakin was too much of a moper. And he was not around long enough as a Jedi. He turned to the dark side relatively early in his life. I didn't think HC's Anakin was deserving of being revered like he was at the end of RotJ, maybe to Luke but not to me.
I guess there is no way around this unless TPTB decide to erase HC's Anakin apparition all together in their next updated version of RotJ. I would find that to be satisfactory.
I didn't know that scenes of celebration on other planets, that were not in the original movie, had been added to RotJ. First time that I remember seeing that.
But what bothered me was seeing Hayden Christiansen as the apparition of Anakin. Unlike the celebration scenes, I had seen this before in a previous updated version of RotJ.
I understand that Obi-wan and Yoda were outstanding and respected Jedis during their time. I had no problem with their apparitions appearing at the end of RotJ.
But Hayden Christiansen's Anakin is another matter. From what was shown in the prequel, HC's Anakin was somewhat of a lightweight. He never even came close to being respected the way Obi-wan and Yoda were.
Also, HC's Anakin was too much of a moper. And he was not around long enough as a Jedi. He turned to the dark side relatively early in his life. I didn't think HC's Anakin was deserving of being revered like he was at the end of RotJ, maybe to Luke but not to me.
I guess there is no way around this unless TPTB decide to erase HC's Anakin apparition all together in their next updated version of RotJ. I would find that to be satisfactory.
Then it's a [insert word that defines a victory that is actually a defeat, unbenownst to the victors] victory.
Ironic?
First. I hate Hayden's inclusion for a number of reasons that are almost entirely creative. (Not the least of which is erasing Sebastian Shaw.)
But why would Anakin's fame as a Jedi have anything to do with his appearance after his death to his son? Or negate his bond with Obi-Wan? The whole reason he is shown with the other two fallen Jedi is to tell the audience "He made it!"
Once again, at the time Return of the Jedi was made, Luke's father was a legendary Jedi. There was even a deleted scene where Red Leader knew Luke's father and was OK with Luke joining the fight on that basis alone. So (once again) it's the prequels that got it wrong.
"Hollow Victory" is adequate, even though it's used synonymously with Pyrrhic victory, which I always see applied blanketly to situations such as I was describing.
Maybe you could loan me yours.
Edit: Actually, after looking in the (Cambridge)dictionary, it turns out I used the phrase in keeping with how I've seen it used. I guess there other uses of old idioms besides a strict, literalist usage.
Cambridge definition:
-a victory that is not worth winning because the winner has lost so much in winning it:
"She won the court case, but it was a Pyrrhic victory, because she had to pay so much in legal fees."
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These things are only in there because Lucas is desperate to connect the prequels with the originals. Same goes for the appalling 'NOOOOO' addition in the ROTJ Blu-Ray.
I always thought the celebrations on other planets felt a little off. Firstly, love the original Yub Nub music. Sounds so jubilant and celebratory, which perfectly matches what's happening on screen. More importantly, we don't see any of those planets throughout the entire original trilogy, so there's no emotional connection to them. That whole scene works so much better focused on the characters we've followed through this journey.
I can understand that from Luke's perspective, he would want to see Anakin appear in order to know that Anakin got his redemption. However, I wish it could have been done in a different way.
As a member of the audience, I didn't find it to be a fitting ending that Hayden Christiansen's Anakin was standing shoulder to shoulder (not literally since Yoda was such a tiny munchkin
) with the great Jedis, Obi-wan and Yoda. Hayden Christiansen's appearance at the end of RoTJ had the wrong affect, at least for me. His appearance reminded me of how terribly written the character was as well as how weak the performance was by the actor who played the role.
Besides, Anakin, as portrayed in the prequel, was a lightweight and hardly a sympathetic character. In RoTJ, did Vader/Anakin ever really express remorse? Ok, he did save Luke from the emperor, but after he was already a beaten man. We were suppose to imply Vader had remorse? It was like a deathbed conversion.
Also, throughout the OT and Luke's life, Luke's only dealing with Anakin was Anakin in the form of Vader. Luke never knew Anakin pre-Vader. Anakin was not a mentor to Luke the way Obi-wan or Yoda were. Anakin was Luke's biological father and that was about it as far their relationship went. It didn't sit well with me seeing HC's Anakin alongside Obi-wan and Yoda at the end of RoTJ.
Preach. Prequel Anakin was not Darth Vader.
But I have to disagree about Darth Vader being litle more than Luke's biological father. The relationship between them is obviously very odd and complex, but Luke's goal throughout Jedi is mostly to turn his father back from the dark side. Vader does achieve that redemption, and I think his presence is justified given his importance to the story and how large Luke's father has loomed throughout the trilogy.
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I hate the "ding dong the witch is dead" sequence. But the only planet that was new was Coruscant. Otherwise it's Tatooine and Bespin. (Right?)
EDIT: OK, I didn't know that GL went back AGAIN and added Naboo. Bloody hell.
So what did you think of the original, non-special edition ending with Sebastian Shaw?
I don't know what this means
Bespin kind of makes sense, but the only character we knew there was Lando, so who cares? I can see why people like the additions, but I always felt like the joy of those Rebellion members shouldn't be diluted. Those are the people who have just risked their lives to defeat the Empire.
EDIT: I love how Lando is just awkwardly clapping his hands like 'there better be a fucking after party to this weird shit'
With Sebastian Shaw, the impression that I got was that Anakin was an older man. Probably an accomplished and respected Jedi on par with Obi-wan, before Anakin turned to the dark side. At least, the original left a lot to the imagination for the audience.
But, I guess we're stuck with a conundrum (is that the right word for this situation?). You can't undo the prequels with Hayden Christiansen as Anakin. HC is the face of Anakin for better or worse. Worse imho.
Oh look, this thread is still going strong.
He's comparing the celebrations at the end of ROTJ with the silly munchkin celebration in "The Wizard of Oz" after the witch gets crushed under Dorothy's house:
Kor
I don't know what this means
He's comparing the celebrations at the end of ROTJ with the silly munchkin celebration in "The Wizard of Oz" after the witch gets crushed under Dorothy's house:
Kor
I like the music in both scenes for different reasons, the original was indeed really celebratory and that was good but also good was the new music which seemed more somber and reflective, that it was a great victory (and so it's fairly celebratory) but also a costly one and one that would bring major change to the whole galaxy.
We had seen Tatooine and Bespin in the OT films, Coruscant and Naboo are from OT perspective are previously unseen but I think OK expansion (if not appropriate for emphasizing how significant the victory was), especially as it's clear enough Coruscant was the Imperial capital.
Edit: Agreed that Christensen Anakin appearing, instead of Shaw Anakin, was bad, he looks too out-of-place compared to Guinness and worse he actually kind of glares at Luke/the viewer.
Apologies, I totally spaced on Tatooine and Bespin. It's been a while since I saw it. Both kinda odd choices though. Wouldn't Bespin have been either taken over by the Empire or simply abandoned after ESB? And I can't really imagine the people on Tatooine giving much of a shit about the Empire.
I guess I just don't see the point. There aren't any characters we care about or even know on those planets. There's never been any indication they've been struggling against the Empire themselves (especially Tatooine), and it doesn't even look like they've suffered at all. Naboo is just as idyllic as ever. If we never see them struggle against the Empire at all (I guess Bespin is the possible exception), why the hell are we supposed to care?
It kind of reminds me of the planets Starkiller destroyed in TFA. In ANH, destroying Alderaan was really important. Firstly, you get that great scene with Tarkin tricking Leia and her reaction to deciding between her home planet and the Rebellion (sort of). You get a closer glimpse at those characters, and it means something when the planet is destroyed because we know how much it means to Leia. We see how truly awful the Empire is, and we also see the effect this has on Ben to hint more at how the force works and why it's important, and destroying Alderaan forms a vital plot point because it's what brings them to the Death Star in the first place.
Then in TFA its just a bunch of random planets. Apparently they are "5 planets within the Hosnian System", which we've never encountered before. Even though 5 planets go, there's no real emotional resonance because they aren't connected in any meaningful way with the characters or the events of the story.
TFA Starkiller planets and ROTJ ending planets, I think it all comes down to establishing no real reason why we should care about these people.
I know, right! He looks super creepy - it's almost a leer. Looks like a deranged killer ... well, I guess that captures Anakin.
In HC defense, he was trying outfits for ROTS and didn't know Lucas was going to use it for ROTJ.
