The ROTJ constructive criticism thread

[JD]

I think it would have been better, although still fairly contrived and awkward, if Leia was the Other but not Luke's sister, instead Bail or Leia's mother had been a Jedi (but thought it better to wait for her to start training when she was older).

Although frankly it is a bit of a problem imposed on Jedi by Empire-thanks to Empire throwing in the pretty out-of-place concept, Jedi would have *had to* either introduce a whole new character or make an awkward revelation that a character we already knew for some reason had Force powers/Jedi potential (that they probably didn't know about).



I think stretching out Luke's story and the battle against the Emperor from not three to six films would have been too drawn-out, made the last four of those six films feel very anticlimactic compared to how significant the first two were. Film three should be pretty climactic and conclusive.

I think a good way to get another three movies worth of story would have been to hold of on introducing The Emperor until movie four, and focus Return just on Luke and Vader. Then once Vader is gone have the Emperor show up to go after th

Rey is a different new female lead character in the next trilogy. Was she the character that was originally intended to be Luke's sister?

No, I'm pretty sure the new trilogy has nothing to do with any of Lucas's ideas.

 

[Set Harth]

Some things in VIII are allegedly similar to what Lucas would have done with VII.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Some things in VIII are allegedly similar to what Lucas would have done with VII.

Do you know any details?

 

[Set Harth]

http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/

 

[suarezguy]

I think a good way to get another three movies worth of story would have been to hold of on introducing The Emperor until movie four, and focus Return just on Luke and Vader. Then once Vader is gone have the Emperor show up

Yeah, that seems to have been the original intention. I think it would have felt too anticlimactic, it makes the most sense that after the good guys win in the first film and the bad guys in the second, the third would have the good guys winning definitively. The original intention, according to Kurtz, would have also been to firmly split up the big three in the third (which probably would have felt dark for the sake of dark, especially coming right after TESB), and have the next trilogy just about Luke and his sister as protagonists.

 

[2takesfrakes]

That sort of repetition was not nearly as bad as the "I have a bad feeling about this" line being used over and over again.

It wouldn't have been that bad if it was just the original speaker who said it more than once. But it was multiple characters spewing out that line, and worse yet, Lucas extended that to characters in the first trilogy as well..

Yes, Lucas' infatuation with so-called "jokey" lines like this is difficult to understand. But it made him happy and it's so often the simple things in Life that do so. Bringing back another Death Star to Return of the Jedi really undermined any sense of tension, regarding destroying it. I mean, like ... there's only one way THIS is going to end, right? Blow it up, just like before. It's kind of stupid, even wanting to use it, again. And STAR WARS continues to use the Death Star in one form or another and Stormtroopers and guys in black suits and voice-changing helmets and tie fighters and emperors and ... Thing is, that when "they" DO introduce something "new" to the saga, it's always the wrong thing. 3PO gets a red arm ... the light side of the force calling to those already seduced by the dark side ... the changes to Luke and all this other shite like that ... it's always the wrong thing. As opposed to adding something truly new to the franchise, it's just different spins on those things that are already familiar. RotJ definitely started this trend and STAR WARS has been unable to offer us anything new since The Eighties. The thing that really gets me about that, though, is ... audiences are alright with that. More than alright with that ... they reward it enough to get the USA out of debt, completely. What it is to be on the receiving end of that. I need to make it in Hollywood; I don't even care how ... I just know I gotta get me some of that!

 

[Prax]

In the Prequels, the villain wins in each film, while the heroes win a pyrrhic victory in the first, an ominous, and hollow victory in the second, and totally are annhilated in the third. They also didn't include any death stars, black voice changing masked villains, and the stormtroopers were the good guys.

"Since the 80's" my foot!

 

[2takesfrakes]

Indeed, sir ... the prequels did, at least, offer some attempt at being different. You're right, there. However ...

TMP capped off with a riotous Victory Celebration and everyone got what they wanted: Padmé $aved her planet, Jar Jar secured the respect of his people, Obi-Won becomes a Jedi Knight, Palpatine gets elected and Annie's salacious relationship with Amidala begins to germinate as he learns the ways of The Force. The only downside is Qui-Gon's clumsily handled death, but even he's in a better place. One where he gets to communicate with Yoda ... and eventually Ben ... from Beyond the Grave. ... Beyond the very grave. So, there's no "pyrrhic" in the heroe's victory, I assure you. True, the first 2 prequels did not include Death Stars, but it was heavily referenced, in all of them. Grevious was in a white outfit, when he finally appeared, but his precursorness to Vader cannot be denied. As for the droid army, it's interesting how The Original Trilogy's stormtroopers kind of held them at bay, if you like ... in the sense that George Lucas did not want them to outshine or out-cool the stormtroopers, so they're goofy-looking and even more incompetent and useless. The only reason they were able to hold ANYONE prisoner was because it's in the script. That's all. Otherwise, they basically served as stationary pillars for the Jedi to -- literally -- chop down and for Captain Panaka to blast to powdery bits ...

 

[Armus]

My only interest in Star Wars now is seeing the original trilogy original theatrical versions upgraded on bluray. As far as I am concerned Return of The Jedi, as derivative as it is of Star Wars, was the last Star Wars movie. Its time for new stories, independent filmmakers, and real artists, not Disney corporate committees, to come up with new space fantasy epics to replace Star Wars.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Armus ... you have got it!

 

[fireproof78]

VHS is fine by me

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I don't have a problem with the Ewoks. But then, I don't really have a problem with Jar Jar Binks either. (I don't think he's the best part of the franchise or anything but my reaction to his lame comic hijinks is more of a shrug rather than the anger that he seems to engender from other fans.)

They should have been more careful with the Matte boxes around the Tie Fighters and more consistent with the scale of ships in general.

At least the matte boxes weren't as bad as they were in The Empire Strikes Back. I can't believe that those are still a problem even after the 1997 special edition and the additional improvements in the 2004 DVD edition. (I haven't seen the 2011 Blu-Ray version, so I can't say whether or not they addressed the problem but I somehow suspect not.)

I was watching RotJ today and it struck me just how many backup plans Luke burns through during his rescue of Han.
First they send in Lando to gather intelligence.
Plan A: Jabba accepts Luke's offer to negotiate for Hans release.
Plan B: Leia infiltrates using Chewie as cover and rescues Han in the middle of the night. Then they have to rescue Chewie and the droids, Lando probably was supposed to take care of that. Why didn't Lando just try to smuggle Han out himself? Han doesn't know Lando is on their side yet, and would probably blow their cover.
Plan C: Luke uses the mind trick on Jabba.
Plan D: Luke grabs a blaster while talking to Jabba, kills him and they fight their way out.
Plan E: Lando tells them their is an opening for an astromech waiter on the sail barge, and that if everything goes south, that is where to they would be executed, so Luke hides his Saber in R2 and they fight their way off the barge.

Good point. Man, this is some really convoluted plotting. Like, 7th Doctor levels of looking multiple moves ahead!

The saucer dish explosion still looks pretty spectacular, but they dropped the ball with the SSD crash.

Does anyone else think that the saucer dish explosion looks a little too big given how close it feels like our heroes are to it?

The intro to the movie is gangbusters. I have seen few sequels that dribbled in the returning cast bit by bit with more effectiveness. With an audience cheer every time. Pirates 3 did pretty much as well, and I think it took a lot of cues from this film.

I think that there are a lot of parallels between the original Star Wars trilogy and the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy.

Personally, I'm quite fond of the rather self-contained nature of the Jabba's Palace sequence from Return of the Jedi. Before I owned any of the movies on video, my annual exposure to Star Wars was in the form of them showing the movies on cable when I was at my grandparents' house for Thanksgiving. It seemed an inevitable pattern that, when we got there, Empire was just ending, so I was able to catch the beginning of ROTJ. I would get all the way through the sequence in Jabba's Palace. Then just after Luke headed off to Degobah, I had to stop watching because it was time to eat. So I'm very grateful that the one piece of the movie that I actually got to see actually has a discrete beginning, middle, & end. Otherwise, I think I'd have felt a lot more gypped every year.

I'm sure it wasn't the first, but it's the good guy version of "Ah ha! No you have me RIGHT where I want me!" that we've seen in so many movies of late. (Into Darkness, Skyfall, probably an X-men somewhere.)

I don't recall any X-Men movies pulling that trick. But, yeah. In addition to Javier Bardem in Skyfall and Khan in Star Trek Into Darkness, I seem to recall playing the same act 2 schtick with Loki in The Avengers and the Joker in The Dark Knight. They also kinda did that with Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, although that time it was at the very beginning of the movie. And then there's Captain America: Civil War, where the bad guy's plan hinges on someone else getting captured by the good guys in the middle of the film.

I think it would have been better, although still fairly contrived and awkward, if Leia was the Other but not Luke's sister, instead Bail or Leia's mother had been a Jedi (but thought it better to wait for her to start training when she was older).

I kinda wonder what would have happened had Leia successfully contacted Obi-Wan before being intercepted by the Empire. Was Bail merely intending to recruit Obi-Wan to fight in the Rebellion himself or did he think that it was possible to train Leia to be a Jedi? Would they have told Leia the whole story or would they have edited some details with their "certain point of view"? Would they have picked up Luke as well or would they have left him behind as a back-up plan?

BTW, Rogue One kinda puts some things into perspective and doesn't completely jive with some stuff from A New Hope. After all, Luke seemed familiar with the Rebellion, even though Rogue One seemed to imply that the resistance against the Empire had previously been confined to mostly a bunch of cloak & dagger espionage & counterintelligence and didn't break out until full armed rebellion until the Battle of Scarif, which was apparently only A FEW HOURS AGO! (Although, in fairness, I suppose we don't necessarily know how long C-3PO & R2-D2 were wandering around in the desert and how long they were being kept by the Jawas before finally being sold to Owen Lars. If it had been a few days, it probably would have been long enough for news of the Rebellion to reach Tatooine.)

TMP capped off with a riotous Victory Celebration and everyone got what they wanted: Padmé saved her planet, Jar Jar secured the respect of his people, Obi-Wan becomes a Jedi Knight, Palpatine gets elected and Annie's salacious relationship with Amidala begins to germinate as he learns the ways of The Force. The only downside is Qui-Gon's clumsily handled death, but even he's in a better place. One where he gets to communicate with Yoda ... and eventually Ben ... from Beyond the Grave. ... Beyond the very grave. So, there's no "pyrrhic" in the heroes' victory, I assure you.

It's not really a "pyrrhic" victory. However, it is much darker than the movie would initially lead you to believe. After all, the real purpose of this whole thing was for Senator Palpatine to manufacture a crisis and then use the political sympathy to elevate himself to the position of Supreme Chancellor. And it's worth noting that the happy children's chorus during the victory celebration on Naboo is simply a more cheerful arrangement of the Emperor's rather moody theme from ROTJ. That tells you who the true victor is in The Phantom Menace.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At least the matte boxes weren't as bad as they were in The Empire Strikes Back. I can't believe that those are still a problem even after the 1997 special edition and the additional improvements in the 2004 DVD edition.

That's true when you watch it on TV now, but on the big screen back in 1980 this wasn't anything we noticed at all. I'd like to revisit the film today under identical conditions as they were back then, to see if the matte boxes are visible, or just how visible they are. Identical conditions of course means more than just seeing TESB on the big screen today; projectors, screens, the film print (yeah, they used actual film back then ), even lighting conditions were all very different back then.

BTW, Rogue One kinda puts some things into perspective and doesn't completely jive with some stuff from A New Hope. After all, Luke seemed familiar with the Rebellion, even though Rogue One seemed to imply that the resistance against the Empire had previously been confined to mostly a bunch of cloak & dagger espionage & counterintelligence and didn't break out until full armed rebellion until the Battle of Scarif, which was apparently only A FEW HOURS AGO!

That's a good catch. There's also what 3PO says about his thinking that he's been in several battles. IMO probably the intent in 1977 was that 3PO had actually seen at least a little action in the Rebellion prior to the capture of Leia's ship. Also, the opening crawl in 1977 makes it sound like the Rebels have been fighting the Empire for a period of time long enough for the galaxy to be in a state of civil war, but without achieving any victories until the battle in which the Death Star plans are stolen.

And it's worth noting that the happy children's chorus during the victory celebration on Naboo is simply a more cheerful arrangement of the Emperor's rather moody theme from ROTJ. That tells you who the true victor is in The Phantom Menace.

Great observation.

 

[Reverend]

BTW, Rogue One kinda puts some things into perspective and doesn't completely jive with some stuff from A New Hope. After all, Luke seemed familiar with the Rebellion, even though Rogue One seemed to imply that the resistance against the Empire had previously been confined to mostly a bunch of cloak & dagger espionage & counterintelligence and didn't break out until full armed rebellion until the Battle of Scarif, which was apparently only A FEW HOURS AGO! (Although, in fairness, I suppose we don't necessarily know how long C-3PO & R2-D2 were wandering around in the desert and how long they were being kept by the Jawas before finally being sold to Owen Lars. If it had been a few days, it probably would have been long enough for news of the Rebellion to reach Tatooine.)

We know from 'Rebels' that various rebel cells have been openly hitting small Imperial targets for years prior to ANH, and there was the time they hijacked the Imperial holonet propaganda feed to broadcast this. The personal recollections of the likes of Jyn and Cassian are in sabotage and spying because that's their experience. It's not meant to be representative of the entire rebellion, just it's uglier side.
So yeah, it shouldn't be all that surprising that word had spread even as far as Luke's corner of nowhere.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It's not really a "pyrrhic" victory. However, it is much darker than the movie would initially lead you to believe. After all, the real purpose of this whole thing was for Senator Palpatine to manufacture a crisis and then use the political sympathy to elevate himself to the position of Supreme Chancellor. And it's worth noting that the happy children's chorus during the victory celebration on Naboo is simply a more cheerful arrangement of the Emperor's rather moody theme from ROTJ. That tells you who the true victor is in The Phantom Menace.

This business with revamping the Emperor's theme is intriguing to me. It's the first I've heard of it and I must say, I never made any such association, before. Very interesting!

 

[Prax]

Indeed, sir ... the prequels did, at least, offer some attempt at being different. You're right, there. However ...

TMP capped off with a riotous Victory Celebration and everyone got what they wanted: Padmé $aved her planet, Jar Jar secured the respect of his people, Obi-Won becomes a Jedi Knight, Palpatine gets elected and Annie's salacious relationship with Amidala begins to germinate as he learns the ways of The Force. The only downside is Qui-Gon's clumsily handled death, but even he's in a better place. One where he gets to communicate with Yoda ... and eventually Ben ... from Beyond the Grave. ... Beyond the very grave. So, there's no "pyrrhic" in the heroe's victory, I assure you. True, the first 2 prequels did not include Death Stars, but it was heavily referenced, in all of them. Grevious was in a white outfit, when he finally appeared, but his precursorness to Vader cannot be denied. As for the droid army, it's interesting how The Original Trilogy's stormtroopers kind of held them at bay, if you like ... in the sense that George Lucas did not want them to outshine or out-cool the stormtroopers, so they're goofy-looking and even more incompetent and useless. The only reason they were able to hold ANYONE prisoner was because it's in the script. That's all. Otherwise, they basically served as stationary pillars for the Jedi to -- literally -- chop down and for Captain Panaka to blast to powdery bits ...

It's a pyrrhic victory because it's not a victory at all, but only feels like one.
Palpatine wins. It's a real victory for him, as he planned all along(Palpatine creates scenarios where he wins either outcome).

The Republic have sealed their fate.

The Jedi Council have voted to train Anakin, Despite Yoda's objection. They become believers in Qui-Gon's superstitions(after their "victory"). Yoda is overruled, and the Jedi have sealed their fate also.
The film ends ominously.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Qui-Gon's superstitions being what, now? I'm not trying to be difficult, here ... I'm just not sure what you're talking about. He had no superstitions regarding Annie, that's for certain. He also bucked the system whenever he felt like it, he didn't seem to be given to superstition, generally. On the other hand, Qui-Gon was as thinly written as the rest of TPM's characters so who knows what Lucas' intentions really are, with any of them. In any event this is the Return of the Jedi thread ... lest we forget or get too carried away!

 

[Prax]

Qui-Gon's superstitions being what, now? I'm not trying to be difficult, here ... I'm just not sure what you're talking about. He had no superstitions regarding Annie, that's for certain. He also bucked the system whenever he felt like it, he didn't seem to be given to superstition, generally. On the other hand, Qui-Gon was as thinly written as the rest of TPM's characters so who knows what Lucas' intentions really are, with any of them. In any event this is the Return of the Jedi thread ... lest we forget or get too carried away!

His belief in the chosen one, the prophesy, and that he'd found this chosen one. The council was skeptical, and not willing to accept anakin. Yoda had a bad feeling about it. Then, after the battle on Naboo, Anakin's part in it(accidently saving everyone) and the reemergence of the Sith, the council does a 180, and accepts Anakin.

They witnessed all these events, saw them as "good portents," and came around to Qui-Gonn's ideas. Only Yoda objected.

You said that RotJ started a trend with the death star and star wars has been unable to offer anything new since the 80's.


...It's not at all true.

Even in RotJ, the story isn't about the death star. In ANH, the death star is an imminent threat to the protagonists, and the movie revolves around it.

In RotJ, the death star is not an imminent threat, but a space station under construction. It's being used as a lure. And it's a side quest. This time, the movie revolves around Luke and Vader, and the Emperor, to conclude Luke's story.

Edit: The Emperor needed a lure tasty enough to get the rebellion to put all of their forces together; their entire fleet, so he could trap them. What greater incentive could the rebels have than a death star? Would they commit all..for less? He then uses all this against Luke, to turn him. He probably has multiple death stars under construction.

 

[2takesfrakes]

In TPM the Federation ship that the pilots are trying to destroy is most decidedly round ... and bulbous ... and definitely trying to emulate the whole Death Star vibe. But no ... there is no actual Death Star in TPM and that is a fact. As for Qui-Gon's views on The Chosen One, it's not superstition, alone, that causes him to view Annie as The Chosen One. His views certainly find their basis in fact, as Qui-Gon samples Annie's blood and discovers its Chosen One contents. What's more, Annie has been using The Force with some regularity, kind of like how Clark Kent was discovering his powers as a kid. Annie doesn't know all of what he can do, but he knows he can do stuff that others can't and he uses that to advantage. And finally, Shmi Skywalker has no idea how she got knocked up. Annie doesn't look like Watto, so that rules him out. Whist it's possible that she got pregnant from a dirty toilet seat, the prophesy is not something outside of the Jedi's sphere, by any means. They created this expectation and as a Jedi, Qui-Gon's not being unreasonable in how he's connecting the dots, as it were. The Council is naturally hesitant because they know nothing about this kid, as yet ... and, as Windu & Yoda keep pointing out in TPM, they have a lot on their plate, particularly now that Darth Maul's made his presence known. Once Qui-Gon's bit the dust and the movie's dangers have passed, for the most part, the Council's quick to overrule Yoda, as you say, in their reconsideration of Annie's potential. But Qui-Gon's superstitions regarding Annie aren't religious zeal, alone ... he's certainly systematic in how he validates his suspicions.

 

[Prax]

In TPM the Federation ship that the pilots are trying to destroy is most decidedly round ... and bulbous ... and definitely trying to emulate the whole Death Star vibe. But no ... there is no actual Death Star in TPM and that is a fact. As for Qui-Gon's views on The Chosen One, it's not superstition, alone, that causes him to view Annie as The Chosen One. His views certainly find their basis in fact, as Qui-Gon samples Annie's blood and discovers its Chosen One contents. What's more, Annie has been using The Force with some regularity, kind of like how Clark Kent was discovering his powers as a kid. Annie doesn't know all of what he can do, but he knows he can do stuff that others can't and he uses that to advantage. And finally, Shmi Skywalker has no idea how she got knocked up. Annie doesn't look like Wado, so that rules him out. Whist it's possible that she got pregnant from a dirty toilet seat, the prophesy is not something outside of the Jedi's sphere, by any means. They created this expectation and as a Jedi, Qui-Gon's not being unreasonable in how he's connecting the dots, as it were. The Council is naturally hesitant because they know nothing about this kid, as yet ... and, as Windu & Yoda keep pointing out in TPM, they have a lot on their plate, particularly now that Darth Maul's made his presence known. Once Qui-Gon's bit the dust and the movie's dangers have passed, for the most part, the Council's quick to overrule Yoda, as you say, in their reconsideration of Annie's potential. But Qui-Gon's superstitions regarding Annie aren't religious zeal, alone ... he's certainly systematic in how he validates his suspicions.

I don't think your definitioncof superstition is in context with how I used it. It is the council who is skeptical of Qui-Gonn and his eccentricities. I never said anything about "religious zeal," nor does religious zeal really relate to superstition. Religious zeal is to champion your religion, and/or be intensely devoted to your religion and its practices.

Qui-Gonn, in the eyes of the council, is an impulsive, eccentric, and disobedient Jedi, with a lot ideas that the more stale council doesn't normally entertain. They are more materialistic.

What if Mace windu or that guy with the cone head went to tatooine, and encountered Anakin. Could you see one of them buying him, bringing him back to the temple, and saying "I've got some good news everybody! I seen... a vergence...it's right here...this boy. He's the f'jng chosen one! the prophesy is fulfilled. We're gonna get some balance!"

"The round droids ship is the death star is the death star" is only similar in the shallowest of ways. There are also death star looking things in the next movie, but that doesn't it's the same old, same old.