Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[Ceridwen]

I disagree. I am of Polish descent (My parents were born there) but I have a friend who's studied Polish and knows it much better than I do, Plus he's read tons of things about the Polish culture and also knows it better than I do, yet he has no Polish people among his ancestors going back three or four generations. It wouldn't make sense to cast me instead of him for playing a Polish in a movie based on my origin, assuming we were both actors of course, which we aren't, but that is immaterial to my point.

Are you two the only two people in the world? Did all the other Polish actors in the world die while we've been talking? Your point is based entirely on false hypotheticals. It's never the choice between two individuals you want it to be, which is why you keep coming back to that scenario because it's the only one in which your point of view makes any sense.

 

[cultcross]

Your point is based entirely on false hypothetical

Exactly. What you keep dodging, @Discofan is that the scenario you're imagining is entirely contrived. If you are trying to cast an Indian guy, and you have one terrible Indian actor and one decent white actor in blackface, guess what the solution is? Find a third guy!

You're engaging in the acting corollary of what we had in the First Asian Captain thread, "I don't see colour". "Just choose actors by merit, they're actors" sounds lovely but is a hugely problematic position when filtered through the real world of prejudice and discrimination.

 

[Discofan]

Are you two the only two people in the world? Did all the other Polish actors in the world die while we've been talking? Your point is based entirely on false hypotheticals. It's never the choice between two individuals you want it to be, which is why you keep coming back to that scenario because it's the only one in which your point of view makes any sense.

How many actors play first roles in American movies? Much fewer than there are movies? Why? According to your logic, there should be a completely different cast for each movie, because only a handful of actors are necessary for the "speaking parts" and there are millions of candidates, So what are the odds that the SAME actor would be the BETTER match of a role twice in a row. Yet that's exactly what happens. There is a role that only five or six people in the world have even a smidgen of a chance of getting. So it's very plausible that my friend and I would be the only ones competing for a role. Because it happens all the time. How many people had the slightest chance of being cast as Captain Picard? Not many, and definitely not millions.

Btw, Stewart not only isn't French but his French is barely understandable, Brent Spiner's is better. So much for ethnic casting!

 

[Discofan]

Exactly. What you keep dodging, @Discofan is that the scenario you're imagining is entirely contrived. If you are trying to cast an Indian guy, and you have one terrible Indian actor and one decent white actor in blackface, guess what the solution is? Find a third guy!

You're engaging in the acting corollary of what we had in the First Asian Captain thread, "I don't see colour". "Just choose actors by merit, they're actors" sounds lovely but is a hugely problematic position when filtered through the real world of prejudice and discrimination.

I may be naive but I believe things would be better if people were chosen on merit and on merit alone regardless of any other consideration.

If you need say, a Robin Hood, you'll choose someone that can make you believe that he's Robin Hood, not someone who's born near Sherwood Forest, won't you?

 

[cultcross]

And you'll have no issue unless people from Sherwood Forest find themselves the victims of widespread systemic discrimination.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

If you need say, a Robin Hood, you'll choose someone that can make you believe that he's Robin Hood, not someone who's born near Sherwood Forest, won't you?

Anytime you want to stop using dishonest or dismissive comparisons and start discussing the topic in a mature way, that would be swell.

 

[Discofan]

I can't believe they even cast Stewart with all the French actors that are fluent in English! Why aren't more people outraged that they did?

 

[cultcross]

Naomi Pollack, a Jewish woman born in New York, was cast as an Indian woman, in actual brown facepaint, in the season 3 episode That Which Survives and a Native American in The Paradise Syndrome. Not enough Indian people around to find anyone who could competently say "Yes Mr Spock", or Native Americans who could believably stand silently in the background, it seems.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I can't believe they even cast Stewart with all the French actors that are fluent in English! Why aren't more people outraged that they did?

A white person playing a different kind of white person is not in the same ballpark (or really even the same sport) as a white person playing a POC. It just isn't. That sounds so obvious but....apparently it isn't???

 

[Discofan]

A white person playing a different kind of white person is not in the same ballpark (or really even the same sport) as a white person playing a POC. It just isn't. That sounds so obvious but....apparently it isn't???

Why should it be obvious?

Picard was born and raised in France so why not take an actor born and raised in France? I wasn't aware that there were so few of them that they were stuck with an Englishman?

It seems to me that what's good for the goose is usually good for the gander as well.

They couldn't even be bothered with hiring French actors for ONE episode!!! When Picard visits his Brother IN FRANCE not one of the actors with a speaking role was French, NOT ONE!

That sounds like discrimination to me.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

It seems to me that what's good for the goose is usually good for the gander as well.

One is a goose, one is a chicken.

EDIT: You clearly just don't understand what discrimination is. Or you're being disingenuous. My money is on the latter.

 

[AlanC9]

If you need say, a Robin Hood, you'll choose someone that can make you believe that he's Robin Hood, not someone who's born near Sherwood Forest, won't you?

Did anyone else immediately think of Kevin Costner's performance when reading this? "Robin of Malibu" -- I forget which critic said that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The first Tomb Raider movie must be something you dislike.

A movie I saw but can't recall anything about.

 

[Discofan]

One is a goose, one is a chicken.

EDIT: You clearly just don't understand what discrimination is. Or you're being disingenuous. My money is on the latter.

You won't resolve discrimination by imposing potentially costly and impractical casting rules.

The question you should be asking is why would people hire actors that are less likely to make their movie a success unless they are insane or they are somehow forced to do so, although I can't imagine how?

 

[cultcross]

Repeating that contrived falsehood doesn't make it true.

 

[Rahul]

In a perfect world - casting could indeed be colorblind. The film "Cloud Atlas" did an incredibly brave attempt at it: It had black actors playing white characters, white actors playing asian characters, and asian actors playing white characters. It was an attempt.

But in reality, this issue is SO laden with intentional and un-intentional racism, it's a very hard topic to discuss. The problem with blackface is not that it's a white actor playing a black character. It's the whole stereotyping and demeaning beneath it. There's simply not going to be a "realistic" portrayal of a black man, if a white man directs another white man on how to "black" properly. An actor is not better because he can speak proper (white) mid-Atlantic movie dialect. How anyone can not see this honestly baffles the mind sometimes.

Also, if white people wouldn't just throw everytime a black actors play a traditional white role SUCH gigantic shit-tantrum (idris Elba being "too street" for James Bond, or the backlash of him playing Heimdall), and if we actually had a FEW black people behind the scenes, as directors or writer actually making decisions on how to portray black people on screen, the topic could be debated much more sober.

As it is, it's a minefield of shit-bombs. And we're years away from people being forgiving about mistakes with this topic.

 

[Discofan]

In a perfect world - casting could indeed be colorblind. The film "Cloud Atlas" did an incredibly brave attempt at it: It had black actors playing white characters, white actors playing asian characters, and asian actors playing white characters. It was an attempt.

But in reality, this issue is SO laden with intentional and un-intentional racism, it's a very hard topic to discuss. The problem with blackface is not that it's a white actor playing a black character. It's the whole stereotyping and demeaning beneath it. There's simply not going to be a "realistic" portrayal of a black man, if a white man directs another white man on how to "black" properly. An actor is not better because he can speak proper (white) mid-Atlantic movie dialect. How anyone can not see this honestly baffles the mind sometimes.

Also, if white people wouldn't just throw everytime a black actors play a traditional white role SUCH gigantic shit-tantrum (idris Elba being "too street" for James Bond, or the backlash of him playing Heimdall), and if we actually had a FEW black people behind the scenes, as directors or writer actually making decisions on how to portray black people, the topic could be debated much more sober.

As it is, it's a minefield of shit-bombs. And we're years away from people being forgiving for mistakes with this topic.

They did hire a black Moneypenny and a black Felix Leiter though.

 

[Rahul]

They did hire a black Moneypenny and a black Felix Leiter though.

At this point I'm wondering if you're really this oblivious to the world. Because this seems to be intentionally obtuse. And if it is, it would imply ugly things....

And fuck, even I'm a straight white male, and can see beyond this shit. You have to be intentionally ignoring it and closing both eyes and ears to pretend to not notice it at this point.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

You won't resolve discrimination by imposing potentially costly and impractical casting rules.

POC are costly and impractical?

The question you should be asking is why would people hire actors that are less likely to make their movie a success unless they are insane or they are somehow forced to do so, although I can't imagine how?

If I'm reading you correctly, you're basically saying that POC aren't cast as much as white people because white people are more bankable and ain't that just a shame. Which is both a racist argument and untrue (see: Black Panther made all of the money).

 

[cultcross]

Never thought I'd miss the arguing about reboots