Dillard's Generations

[F. King Daniel]

I had the YA novelization of Generations and I'm pretty sure that had Kirk being shot in the back, too.

The YA novelization of First Contact described the Borg Queen as having long dark hair, which I always thought was weird since the centre of the book had photos showing her to be bald.

 

[Damian]

I'll never understand why some fans put so much stock in this line. Kirk's not psychic and had no reason to display any special insight into how he was going to die.

It was one of those things that stuck out in TFF. One of those sixth sense things. You could argue he was supposed to die on the Enterprise-B when he was alone and was saved by basically a fluke.

He wasn’t alone however as Picard was there.

Some have interpreted his line could have meant alone from what he considered his family, Spock and McCoy. I've sort of gone with that myself. He didn't die alone per se, but he died with someone he barely knew and away from his 'family.' I can buy that.

Besides, tons of movie characters die from falls, often from bridges or catwalks. It seems odd to see it as such a problem here.

I know. And I'll try to keep that in mind the next time I watch Generations. It's just, with Kirk, I sort of expected more. It doesn't have to be some crazy Kirk vs 1000 Klingons death. As I said his 'first' death on the Enterprise-B was perfect to me, and it didn't have any crazy stunts. He was rerouting circuits on the deflector. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sometimes it's the way it's presented. I thought the way they handled the elder Spock's death in Beyond was very poignant. And there was no crazy heroics or stunts. But I thought very well done. In Generations it felt like it was missing something. Unlike the Harriman situation, where my opinion has evolved over time, with Kirk's 'final' death, no matter how many times I see it, it always feels the same, empty. Like they forgot to film something.

 

[F. King Daniel]

In Generations it felt like it was missing something. Unlike the Harriman situation, where my opinion has evolved over time, with Kirk's 'final' death, no matter how many times I see it, it always feels the same, empty. Like they forgot to film something.

Spock. This was Kirk's first ever appearance without his half-Vulcan BFF and as such it seemed off.

Kirk got a better death in Into Darkness and that one lasted 15 minutes.

 

[Christopher]

Kirk got a better death in Into Darkness and that one lasted 15 minutes.

I wouldn't even count that as a death scene for Kirk, since it was such a blatant homage to Spock's death scene in TWOK.

 

[Damian]

That must have been it. No Spock. But then, he wouldn't have "died alone".

I hated the blatant TWOK 'death' reverse rip off scene in STID. I remember thinking, really, they went there. I couldn't believe it. I'm sure they thought they were being cute, but I was just shaking my head. And don't get me started about the magic blood :P

 

[Damian]

I wouldn't even count that as a death scene for Kirk, since it was such a blatant homage to Spock's death scene in TWOK.

You're being far too nice. It was a blatant rip-off. Then when Spock yelled "KHAN" I almost yelled at the screen..No way did they just seriously do that. In a way I almost felt like Abrams even thought it bordered on ridiculous because they quickly cut away to the next scene. Like "KHAAAAVengeance roaring into the atmosphere"

 

[F. King Daniel]

I wouldn't even count that as a death scene for Kirk, since it was such a blatant homage to Spock's death scene in TWOK.

Each to their own. Spock's "Khaaaan!" was utterly stupid, but I thought the death beforehand was extremely well done.

 

[Christopher]

Each to their own. Spock's "Khaaaan!" was utterly stupid, but I thought the death beforehand was extremely well done.

If they'd cut out the quotes from TWOK, it wouldn't have been too bad, except for the silliness of the setup (kicking an antimatter injector into place? Seriously?).

 

[F. King Daniel]

If they'd cut out the quotes from TWOK, it wouldn't have been too bad, except for the silliness of the setup (kicking an antimatter injector into place? Seriously?).

Yeah, thats far less plausible than Spock stirring antimatter soup with his bare hands to get the warp drive working

 

[Damian]

Yeah, thats far less plausible than Spock stirring antimatter soup with his bare hands to get the warp drive working

I seem to remember Spock was trying to release a stuck valve. And he was wearing gloves, just sayin.

Kicking an antimatter injector was pretty silly too. I'm sure guys like Rick Sternbach and John Eaves were impressed with that little bit of Trek fixery. Not to mention the inside of that chamber was about 5 times to big for the ship (but that's another story)

 

[JD]

If the Enterprise-E can have a bottomless shaft, then I don't see the problem with the Kelvinverse Enterprise having giant chamber in engineering.

At any rate, even if we define "starship" to mean "a ship meant for interstellar travel," that still leaves room for ships meant to patrol and defend a single star system, of which there should logically be a great many around Sol. Too many Trek movies and episodes fail to acknowledge that any world belonging to an interstellar civilization would have a robust home defense of some sort. At least TMP acknowledges this (V'Ger is able to shut down Earth's defense grid because of the data it stole from the Enterprise computer), as does ST '09 (Nero tortures Pike to get the codes to shut down the defense grid). And "The Best of Both Worlds" makes a token mention of the Mars defense perimeter. But all too often, it's ignored.

The problem is, Trek is a franchise whose basic tropes were built around a focus on a ship probing the far frontier beyond known civilization, a context in which it would usually be on its own. Too often, writers who set stories closer to home fail to recognize that the storylines need to be adjusted accordingly.

I guess in theory, maybe there was a robust defense grid in the Solar System in TMP, but it just wasn't equipped to deal with something the size and sheer scope that V'Ger presented, maybe the Enterprise was the only heavy cruiser that had a shot at doing something about it. Pure conjecture of course, but I have to imagine the Solar System was equipped to handle run of the mill threats, say like a Klingon or Romulan fleet.

In Best of Both Worlds one could argue that there was a fleet, at Wolf 359 in the hopes of stopping the Borg before they ever reached Earth, for all the good it did. Of course the Dominion snuck in and attacked Earth, but there it was made clear the Breen did suffer heavy casualties--so as time went on they didn't seem to go to the 'only ship in range' card as much (even if it was the hero ship that saved the day).

It does get old with how often Earth is at risk in the movies in particular. One thing I liked about Beyond is it had nothing to do with Earth--I mean was it even mentioned in the film?

At least The Voyage Home did have the Cetacean Probe passing several ships on the way to Earth. I just watched it last week, and I think they might have made references to planetary defense systems or something like that when going through all the stuff the probe was taking out.

 

[Christopher]

If the Enterprise-E can have a bottomless shaft, then I don't see the problem with the Kelvinverse Enterprise having giant chamber in engineering

That's hardly the problem. The problem is, a matter-antimatter reactor would need its parts incredibly finely aligned and calibrated in order to function safely, if at all. You couldn't just kick it into place like... whatever.

Also, you'd think they'd have maintenance drones or robot arms or something to perform that kind of repair in a hazardous environment, but Trek's future has always been oddly robot-free.

 

[Damian]

If the Enterprise-E can have a bottomless shaft, then I don't see the problem with the Kelvinverse Enterprise having giant chamber in engineering.

I can't argue with that. And who can forget the 78 decks on the Enterprise-A. Zimmerman even pointed out to Shatner that the Enterprise only had, what 23 decks, but I guess Shatner thought he knew better.

 

[Damian]

That's hardly the problem. The problem is, a matter-antimatter reactor would need its parts incredibly finely aligned and calibrated in order to function safely, if at all. You couldn't just kick it into place like... whatever.

Also, you'd think they'd have maintenance drones or robot arms or something to perform that kind of repair in a hazardous environment, but Trek's future has always been oddly robot-free.

Ha-ha. I know some fans complain about all the technobabble, and yes, at times it could distract from the dramatic storyline. But I never thought it was a good idea to completely omit it either. I remember reading comments by Rick Sternbach on another site explaining how they try to think things through when building and designing sets, even if it didn't show up in dialogue or anything. Part of that is Star Trek is science fiction, not fantasy, and most of the production teams tried to give a real-world quality to everything they did. Not just put something there because it would look cool and dramatic.

I remember Sternbach explaining how something worked to the extent I almost felt like I could go out in my garage and build a warp engine. I had a hard time finding deuterium. And you know, I'm sure in the 23rd century you can find antimatter at any corner store, but in the 2010's it's a little hard to come by.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And you know, I'm sure in the 23rd century you can find antimatter at any corner store, but in the 2010's it's a little hard to come by.

...Tell me, Future Boy, who's the President of the United States in 1985?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Are you sure about that? I have both the hardcover and the paperback version and they both contain the same version of Kirk's death.
Both of mine are first printings so it might have been revised in subsequent reprints.

No, the first-printing of the paperback definitely has the as-screened death, not the version in the hardcover. All of my Pocket collection are first-editions.

Check yours again. Do you have a regular Pocket Books USA hardcover edition, or is it for a book club, which sometimes repackaged MMPBs as hardcovers?

 

[tomswift2002]

No, the first-printing of the paperback definitely has the as-screened death, not the version in the hardcover. All of my Pocket collection are first-editions.

Check yours again. Do you have a regular Pocket Books USA hardcover edition, or is it for a book club, which sometimes repackaged MMPBs as hardcovers?

I just checked my paperback copy. It has the bridge death scene from the reshoot and the copyright page lists a first printing.

 

[Damian]

I just checked my paperback copy. It has the bridge death scene from the reshoot and the copyright page lists a first printing.

That could be the paperback first printing. I have the earlier hardcover book and mine has the shot in the back scene.

 

[tomswift2002]

That could be the paperback first printing. I have the earlier hardcover book and mine has the shot in the back scene.

Uh...duh! That's what I said. My paperback copy has the reshot bridge death scene, and the book is a first printing, according to the copyright page. Therin, on the other hand, is saying that he has a paperback first edition that contains the original shot-in-the-back-scene that the hardcover contained (I just checked my copy of the John Vornholt Young Adult Paperback version of the book, which is a second edition, and it contains the shot-in-the-back scene).

I think we can clear it up this way:

The Hard Cover and Young Adult Paperback from December 1994 both contain the original ending where Kirk is shot in the back.
The Adult Paperback from 1995 has the reshot bridge death scene.

 

[Damian]

Uh...duh! That's what I said. My paperback copy has the reshot bridge death scene, and the book is a first printing, according to the copyright page. Therin, on the other hand, is saying that he has a paperback first edition that contains the original shot-in-the-back-scene that the hardcover contained (I just checked my copy of the John Vornholt Young Adult Paperback version of the book, which is a second edition, and it contains the shot-in-the-back scene).

I think we can clear it up this way:

The Hard Cover and Young Adult Paperback from December 1994 both contain the original ending where Kirk is shot in the back.
The Adult Paperback from 1995 has the reshot bridge death scene.

Oh, I misunderstood. Sorry.