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Litverse & Star Trek '09

It’s never stated that Archer is alive when Scotty did the experiment. Just his dog.
If we're not buying the idea that "Admiral Archer" was Jonathan Archer, than there's no way the beagle Scotty did his transporter experiment on was Porthos we saw on the show. Hell, even if Admiral Archer were Jonathan Archer, he almost certainly had another dog almost a hundred years later.
 
If we're not buying the idea that "Admiral Archer" was Jonathan Archer, than there's no way the beagle Scotty did his transporter experiment on was Porthos we saw on the show. Hell, even if Admiral Archer were Jonathan Archer, he almost certainly had another dog almost a hundred years later.

Does that even need to be said? A beagle's lifespan is typically under 20 years, almost never more than 25. Of course it's a different beagle.
 
Does this count as the same beagle or not?
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The Enterprise novels are leading to it. He’s already head of Starfleet.
I definitely wouldn't vote for him.

John Sheridan, on the other hand...
 
I definitely wouldn't vote for him.

John Sheridan, on the other hand...

In John Sheridan's Alliance, they had the equivalent of Andor seceding from the Federation after, like, six months. Though, to be fair, credit for avoiding that would be more on Vanderbilt or al-Rashid (depending on how you count) than Archer.
 
Also, intent is mutable. Creators change their minds all the time. The reason offscreen ideas don't count is because everything, everything, is subject to change until it's actually in the final cut of the story, and sometimes even afterward. There's a case I just read about on another site, where the janitor from the sitcom Scrubs was intended to be a figment of the main character's imagination, and they hinted at that all season by having him never interact with anyone else -- but then the actor begged to be allowed to interact with other cast members, so the showrunner abandoned the original intent and made the janitor a real live boy.

In Trek, Janice Rand was intended to be the female lead. Data was intended to have been built by mysterious aliens and to have the personalities of dozens of dead colonists inside him. The Bajoran wormhole was intended to be in an asteroid belt. Voyager's crew was intended to stop obsessing over the search for home after a while and just get caught up in exploring the Delta Quadrant. Intent isn't reality.

Fair enough, with TV or any other medium where you're going to expand as you go, then there should be that room where things can be added as the series progresses. (Also I'm pretty sure that Data's memories of the colonist's remained. I remember him reciting one of their experiences and his description of someone liking someone elses "physical attributes" is my all time favourite of his euphamisms)

But for a single - essentially throw away - line in one film such as the Archer reference then I think people can be forgiven for reading into it whatever they want.
 
(Also I'm pretty sure that Data's memories of the colonist's remained. I remember him reciting one of their experiences and his description of someone liking someone elses "physical attributes" is my all time favourite of his euphamisms)

Yes, "Silicon Avatar" established that he had the colonists' journals transcribed in his memory banks, but the original intention was that he had their actual minds preserved inside him, and that he was created specifically for that purpose. In the words of the first-draft series bible (March 23, 1987), p. 26:

Until the role is cast, Data can be defined as representing any racial group between Pacific Oceania and the Middle East. Whatever his final physiognomy, it is a result of his being manufactured by highly advanced (and never seen) aliens who intended him to serve as a repository of all the memories of a doomed Earth-Asian space colony. Unable to save those colonists from whatever exterminated them, the aliens of that world saved the memories of those colonists, resulting in Data being in effect the "sum" of that lost colony.

In giving Data the ability to handle so many memories, the aliens equipped him with other capacities they apparently considered "normal" (at least for themselves). Thus, Data has a memory capacity of phenomenal size as compared with humans, enabling him to serve both the vessel and away teams as something of a "walking library", his reading speed, manual dexterity, strength and vision are also superior to those of humans.

This was incredibly different from what they ended up doing. It's too bad they passed up the chance to cast an Asian actor in the role, although that might've played into the stereotype of Asians as overachieving nerds.


But for a single - essentially throw away - line in one film such as the Archer reference then I think people can be forgiven for reading into it whatever they want.

Yeah, but that's what I don't get -- why would anyone want to believe something that's insanely improbable, like Jonathan Archer somehow becoming the longest-lived human in history, over something that's perfectly natural and commonplace, like Jonathan Archer having kids who follow him into Starfleet?
 
I had always just assumed it was Johnathan Archer kid or grandkid and Porthos descendant.
 
He's with the transporter chick at the moment. It's possible he could have a kid.

They'd have to solve the "transporters damage your reproductive system" problem (from A Choice of Futures) first. However, given that we know they did solve this problem eventually that's not a big issue.
 
I thought Reed was the one with those issues. Archer just had some minor nerve damage.
 
As for the age thing, McCoy was 137 in "Farpoint" and modern Trek has made a habit of retconning all the once-unique 24th century abilities of Trek into the 22nd and 23rd. So Archer living to a ripe old age really isn't that much of a big deal.

Plus it's kinda cool to imagine ancient Archer meeting young Kirk and Scotty.
 
His canon death date was 2245 meaning that he was 133 years old. That’s pretty good.
 
why would anyone want to believe something that's insanely improbable ... over something that's perfectly natural and commonplace

Because peoples beliefs don't generally stem from rational facts, they come from feelings and what they prefer to be true. See: Trump, Brexit, etc.
 
They'd have to solve the "transporters damage your reproductive system" problem (from A Choice of Futures) first. However, given that we know they did solve this problem eventually that's not a big issue.

That's not the case. Rather, early transporters could cause cumulative minor damage with heavy use, and this could potentially manifest as various different forms of systemic damage depending on the individual and on the luck of the draw. Malcolm Reed suffered reproductive damage, Jonathan Archer suffered loss of motor functions, and Trip Tucker, the other heaviest transporter user, suffered no evident long-term damage.


As for the age thing, McCoy was 137 in "Farpoint" and modern Trek has made a habit of retconning all the once-unique 24th century abilities of Trek into the 22nd and 23rd. So Archer living to a ripe old age really isn't that much of a big deal.

And yet Mark Jameson in "Too Short a Season" was ancient and feeble in his 80s. And let's not even talk about "The Deadly Years."

Also, you're confusing "possible" with "routine." McCoy living to 137, as I said, was portrayed as exceptional, an accomplishment in its own right. In DS9, Jadzia once told O'Brien she expected him to live to 140, but in terms that indicated she saw it as a ripe old age, near the maximum possible for humans. Statistically speaking, nearly all humans would live shorter lives.

Especially someone like Archer, an early space explorer who was exposed to all sorts of unprecedented dangers in space, dangers that humanity wouldn't yet have discovered ways to protect against. Even aside from the transporter thing, there's no telling what kinds of exotic radiations he was exposed to, what kind of long-term damage he and his crew suffered from exposure to the spatial distortions in the Expanse, etc. Fans want their heroes to live forever, but the harsh reality is that NX-01's crew would be far more likely to die young compared to the average.

And yes, reality matters, at least to me. To my generation, Star Trek was the most plausible, realistic, and well-researched science fiction show on television by a huge margin (or rather, the only one that even tried to be plausible). That believability was a key element of its popularity, because it made the show feel more real and important to us, made us willing to buy into its reality in a way we couldn't do with more lowbrow, fanciful shows. It's frustrating to have that view of Star Trek and see everyone else these days treating it as pure fantasy that doesn't have to make any sense.


Because peoples beliefs don't generally stem from rational facts, they come from feelings and what they prefer to be true. See: Trump, Brexit, etc.

Which is something that should be challenged and questioned, not shrugged off and settled for. If more people learned to think critically, those things wouldn't have happened.
 
I do remember reading something about Jonathan Archer living until the 2245 launch of the Enterprise in the 'prime' timeline, at least according to a bio portrayed "In A Mirror, Darkly" (though I believe it was unseen--but since the intent was there I'll go with it). Now as far as the reference in Star Trek (2009) I remember reading a comment from Bob Orci that they were indeed referencing the same Jonathan Archer. That's not really canon, but he was one of the writers so I figure if he says that was his intent in writing the line, I'll accept it.

Now that does not mean necessarily that Archer lived beyond 2245 in the Abramsverse. I mean, Scotty was referring to an event in the past, who's to say it wasn't 2245 or before? As far as the beagle, I always assumed it was a later beagle.

I get Christopher's argument about long lived humans. I figured Archer was just an exception. Perhaps the complications from his transporter use had a side effect of increasing his life span artificially. After all, not all complications lead to shortened life, or maybe he received some sort of treatment for it that increased his life span past normal--or any number of things unique to his situation.
 
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