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Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

Is it?

  • Yes, that's the official word and it still fits

    Votes: 194 44.7%
  • Yes, but it's borderline at this point

    Votes: 44 10.1%
  • No, there's just too many inconsistencies

    Votes: 147 33.9%
  • I don't care about continuity, just the show's quality

    Votes: 49 11.3%

  • Total voters
    434
Maybe it was different in 1979, but I don't remember anyone complaining or caring about Klingons having ridges in the time that I've been a fan (since 1991).

If anyone did care, it was about why Klingons in TOS looked different from everywhere else, not the other way around.
 
Maybe it was different in 1979, but I don't remember anyone complaining or caring about Klingons having ridges in the time that I've been a fan (since 1991).

If anyone did care, it was about why Klingons in TOS looked different from everywhere else, not the other way around.

Even getting into Trek at 6 years old I never considered the changing appearance of the Klingons to be some subject that needed to be addressed in universe. It always just struck me as the movies upgrading the look and pretending they always looked like that. That worked for me.
 
Even getting into Trek at 6 years old I never considered the changing appearance of the Klingons to be some subject that needed to be addressed in universe. It always just struck me as the movies upgrading the look and pretending they always looked like that. That worked for me.
I thought they looked the best in TUC, personally. TMP was off putting but it was ok in the TOS films after that. TNG on the other hand...
 
The six TOS films were my first exposure to Trek, so I only saw the actual series a bit after I got into the movies. It was kind of jarring going from the movies to the show, but all the characters were still there and it was clearly the same universe, just under the guise of a 60s TV production, which I was already accustomed to via Batman.
 
The six TOS films were my first exposure to Trek, so I only saw the actual series a bit after I got into the movies. It was kind of jarring going from the movies to the show, but all the characters were still there and it was clearly the same universe, just under the guise of a 60s TV production, which I was already accustomed to via Batman.
Well, Adam West Batman is the best Batman. :)
 
The six TOS films were my first exposure to Trek, so I only saw the actual series a bit after I got into the movies. It was kind of jarring going from the movies to the show, but all the characters were still there and it was clearly the same universe, just under the guise of a 60s TV production, which I was already accustomed to via Batman.

I went TOS Movies, TNG, then TOS.

When TMP came out we're literally talking about a time when I was four months old. But let's pretend I was older. Old enough to go to school at least, and had seen TOS. I imagine, if anything, I still would've liked the Klingons in TMP better because I would've thought they looked bad-ass.

Except for Kor and Kang, the Klingons in TOS itself weren't that great. The Romulans were a lot more compelling and used less often, which gave them more impact when they actually did show up.

So, I think the changes made to the Klingons post-TOS were for the better.
 
Right. And even if DSC had stuck closer to the aesthetics of TOS, I highly doubt it would have ignored everything we had learned about Klingons post-TOS because we've learned so much more about them after the show than during. Even ENT portrayed the Klingons as we knew of them post-TOS albeit much less honorable in that earlier time period.
 
I always got the impression that honor was way more situational than Klingons were willing to admit to. It was an ideal they they liked to present to others as something they had, but they don't exactly practice what they preach. Worf, being raised by humans, never really picked up on that and was more devout.

This lined up perfectly with how they are portrayed in DISCO, T'Kuvma is basically a zealot.
 
Even getting into Trek at 6 years old I never considered the changing appearance of the Klingons to be some subject that needed to be addressed in universe. It always just struck me as the movies upgrading the look and pretending they always looked like that. That worked for me.

I remember when the original power rangers movie came out in 1995, 13 year old me was irked at first that the suits looked different but then i realised that it was a movie with a bigger budget than the tv show and hence better production values. It was the same when i got into star trek about a year later. I'll never understand the need for something that is clearly due to changing production values to have an in universe explanation.
 
I remember when the original power rangers movie came out in 1995, 13 year old me was irked at first that the suits looked different but then i realised that it was a movie with a bigger budget than the tv show and hence better production values. It was the same when i got into star trek about a year later. I'll never understand the need for something that is clearly due to changing production values to have an in universe explanation.
The Power Ranger thing is weird because the next season that premiered after the film came out in the previous summer just straight up ignored the film by redoing that whole plot for the show in a multi-parter. I actually liked that they did that, because as a kid even I didn't enjoy the movie that much. It even temporarily put me off from seeing more Power Rangers and I was only 8 then.
 
Okay, fine, you don't like the word "rules," I could make the exact same point using the word "conventions." Or "norms."
Except you couldn't. "Rules" implies there's some sort of penalty involved if you break them or that deviating from them is widely discouraged. But but "the norm" is just a loosely applied set of things that everyone does, either because they work very well or because nobody has come up with a better idea. People buck conventions all the time, it's the reason there's some much variation in fiction.

Still safely sticking with the incredibly obvious.
I point out the incredibly obvious because a moment ago you tried to assert that science fiction television/films were "simulations of reality." This is not the case: events in a simulation take place based on pre-defined rules and cause and effect relationships so that the final outcome cannot be known to anyone until the simulation has run its course. The fact that REALITY works much the same way is what makes these things "simulations" rather than just games or stories.p

In a narrative, both end-points are set artificially and the causal chain of events between them are equally artificial. The story unfolds precisely the way the author wants it to and cannot unfold any other way.

We have here a conclusion that absolutely does not follow from the uncontroversial premises set out beforehand.
You already conceded this point for every medium in fiction except for television and film, and even then you conceded that this is already true of musicals. So this is another obvious conclusion that does indeed follow directly from the uncontroversial premise: that all props, music, sets, makeup, visuals and special effects are just symbols meant to express the narrative.

Are you prepared to give a coherent reason why TOS' visuals have to be taken absolutely literally while "The Music Man" or "Grease" do not?

Hell, you can't even agree about what the boundaries of the narrative are.
Is that what you're confused about?

In television, the narrative of a particular episode begins at the opening scene and ends with the ending scene. A broader narrative begins with season premier and ends with the season finale. A series-wide narrative -- if there is one -- begins with the series premier and ends with the series finale.

TOS and Discovery share a common setting. They do not (yet) share a common narrative, but they very well might in the future if Discovery borrows some story elements directly from TOS.

Are there figurative or symbolic visual elements in Trek? Of course. For instance, I don't think the bridge in TOS actually has a light that's designed to shine across the eyes of the captain at moments when he makes particularly dramatic statements. But that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here.
We're talking about visuals, are we not? This is something we see, so we either interpret it literally or we don't.

Unless, of course, you're drawing some arbitrary distinction in your own head about what things must be taken literally and what things are probably just symbolic elements. THAT approach boils down entirely to personal preference, what any particular person does or does not choose to interpret as literally happening exactly the way the screen shows us. Which is entirely possible, and entirely NORMAL... but it also leaves you without some sort of universal rule you can use as a cudgel against the producers of Discovery when they fail to follow it.

Only if you completely failed to read (or to grasp) what I already painstakingly explained. The "rules" I'm talking about aren't absolute, of course; they're flexible.
So your earlier objection about the producers of Discovery having violated those "rules" (they're more like "guidelines" anyway!) is invalid.

The "contract" with the audience varies according to the medium and genre and format and other characteristics of the work under consideration.
More than that: it varies from person to person. How you interpret the story you're being told depends on your unique point of view, your own life experiences, background and experience with other similar stories.

Not everyone agrees on which visual elements must be literally true. Not everyone has to. Everyone watching your show is going to disagree slightly on what the show actually looked like, but if the storyteller has done his job correctly, they will all agree on WHAT HAPPENED in the show.

Do people glow green and slowly vanish when they're vaporized, or do they glow bright orange and disintegrate like in Wrath of Khan? Do they fizzle and burn away like burning cotton or do they flash into little man-shaped puffs and vanish in the blink of an eye? Do phasers fire in pulses, beams, bolts, or are the beams invisible except for the flash when they hit something? It doesn't matter; a phaser set to a high enough setting will vaporize the person it's fired at. What this actually LOOKS LIKE will vary dramatically from one production to the next, but the narrative implications never change.

Until DSC, that is. DSC is unilaterally trying to rewrite that deal with the audience
Again, I didn't sign any deal with Star Trek where I agreed to always interpret the show's visuals a particular way. Obviously this is because been watching the show wrong my entire life and am not the "experienced audience member" you are.
 
Again, I didn't sign any deal with Star Trek where I agreed to always interpret the show's visuals a particular way. Obviously this is because been watching the show wrong my entire life and am not the "experienced audience member" you are.
Is it just me, or are there a lot of rules I haven't followed for watching Star Trek? Genuine question.
 
Oh, so Khan's people didn't change from multi-ethnic space yoga performers in red mechanic's jumpsuits and gold mesh swimsuits to somehow younger Swedish Mad Max cosplayers with ABBA hairdos in the 15 years between Space Seed and TWoK?


Oh no, a group of people that belonged to the super wealthy upperclass that escaped in their own, private starship chaged their clothes after they became exiled on a hostile desert environment where they had to fight to survive every single day for years!

Surely, this is a gross continuity error and comparable to the complete visual reboot and cleansing ot all history and common elements of the entirety of Star Trek's most popular alien species, and not just a small thing called "change" that happened to people over the years...
 
Oh no, a group of people that belonged to the super wealthy upperclass that escaped in their own, private starship chaged their clothes after they became exiled on a hostile desert environment where they had to fight to survive every single day for years!
They changed their ethnicities too, apparently. That's a pretty impressive survival mechanism.
 
Oh no, a group of people that belonged to the super wealthy upperclass that escaped in their own, private starship chaged their clothes after they became exiled on a hostile desert environment where they had to fight to survive every single day for years!

Surely, this is a gross continuity error and comparable to the complete visual reboot and cleansing ot all history and common elements of the entirety of Star Trek's most popular alien species, and not just a small thing called "change" that happened to people over the years...
Well, the point completely flew over your head. Why not go back and read the context behind why I made that post and what I was replying to and then try again, and this time, also try and take into account that I was mostly making a joke about the clothing and hairstyles.

I never said it was a gross continuity error because I don't give two shits about that. TWoK is my favorite Trek movie. Nor did I compare it to DSC in terms of degree; I was simply correcting his erroneous point that there were no visual changes between Space Seed and TWoK. Everyone but Khan got younger and changed ethnicities.
 
Well, the point completely flew over your head. Why not go back and read the context behind why I made that post and what I was replying to and then try again, and this time, also try and take into account that I was mostly making a joke about the clothing and hairstyles.

I never said it was a gross continuity error because I don't give two shits about that. TWoK is my favorite Trek movie. Nor did I compare it to DSC in terms of degree; I was simply correcting his erroneous point that there were no visual changes between Space Seed and TWoK. Everyone but Khan got younger and changed ethnicities.

It must be something in the air because in the Kelvin Universe even Khan got younger and changed ethnicities.
 
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