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Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

Is it?

  • Yes, that's the official word and it still fits

    Votes: 194 44.7%
  • Yes, but it's borderline at this point

    Votes: 44 10.1%
  • No, there's just too many inconsistencies

    Votes: 147 33.9%
  • I don't care about continuity, just the show's quality

    Votes: 49 11.3%

  • Total voters
    434
The Federation as numerous member species. Why not Klingons?
We've never seen more than one type in one production (except Trials and Tribble-ations) and Discovery so far is no exception. Seeing some Klingons of other types (such as ones with hair) really would help it fit with the other shows. It would at least show that those Klingons still exist. It works for the comics, why not the show?
 
The more I think about it, the show is clearly just a straight up reboot and doesn't really fit in with Star Trek Prime.

Nothing .. "feels" right. The Federation is portrayed wrong both visually and in representation, the Klingons are portrayed wrong, the era is portrayed wrong.

Sure you can say they retconned the Augment virus arc, but honestly, the Augment virus arc was a better story and collection of episodes than the entirety of Discovery and gave some much needed world building to the Klingons like the fact Klingons used to be a race of scientists and academics but then suffered a military coup and the warrior caste took over society, which also goes to explain the old joke "How in hell did Klingons even leave Qo'nos?".

The Klingon War in this show is just absurd, especially how the Klingons are literally seconds away from launching an attack on earth and are basically in orbit, yet not a single Federation ship or Earth Defences are anywhere. This is also retconning DS9 where Martok says the Klingons have never dreamed or dared to attack Earth.

Even if the show wasn't filled with flagrant canon violations, it just doesn't feel right, nothing about the tone or how it represents the Federation or Klingons or even Starship operations fits with the Prime timeline.

The show does fit somewhere in Star Trek though, and that is the Kelvin timeline, the tone, how the characters all act like cliquey high school students, Klingon redesign, the ship sizes etc. Stick it in Kelvin and it perfectly fits.
(Thats what happens when you get Kurtzman, Orci and Goldsman as producers)

We've never seen more than one type in one production (except Trials and Tribble-ations) and Discovery so far is no exception. Seeing some Klingons of other types (such as ones with hair) really would help it fit with the other shows. It would at least show that those Klingons still exist. It works for the comics, why not the show?

Really the Klingon Empire should be multiple species, it makes no sense that they are not. But as you say and was one of my great disappointments with Discovery, why in hell didn't they show this with the Klingon houses like they actually flat out PROMISED they will?
 
Sorry, they said the Klingon Houses would all look different and be unique and we would go on to explore them all.
They all looked identical, we didn't even learn of any of their names beyond Kor, the Klingon redesign was never explained like again they said it would.

Not surprising, the show couldn't even get Orions right.
 
Sorry, they said the Klingon Houses would all look different and be unique and we would go on to explore them all.
They all looked identical, we didn't even learn of any of their names beyond Kor, the Klingon redesign was never explained like again they said it would.

Not surprising, the show couldn't even get Orions right.


None shared the same uniforms.They all had thier own look and style. You exspected something never promised
 
They literally promised they would explore all the different houses. They promised the canon violations would be explained. When asked why the Klingons look this way, they were like "All the Klingon houses look different and we will explore that". Wow they wore some different clothes, such difference and we totally got to see more than ever before the Klingon Houses fleshed out! Thats totally what the question meant (when everyone with a brain was like ... why don't they look like ENT, TOS or TNG/TMP Klingons?)

The flat out lied. There was never any explanation for anything, they just completely redesigned the Klingons, explained nothing and we got the most shallow representation of Klingons in Trek yet.

Like everything to do with this show, the producers and writers just lied out of their ass over and over again. This is one of the major reasons fans aren't buying Prime timeline, because the writers and producers have just not stopped lying about addressing canon and Discovery's place in Star Trek.
 
Sure you can say they retconned the Augment virus arc, but honestly, the Augment virus arc was a better story and collection of episodes than the entirety of Discovery
The augment story was unnecessary fanwank of the highest order. The pinnacle of what was wrong with ENT's fourth season. Discovery has its weaknesses with plotting, that's for certain, but at least it isn't devoting multi part episodes to overexplaining a joke from an anniversary show.

the Klingons are literally seconds away from launching an attack on earth and are basically in orbit,
There was a big zoom shot which shows that wasn't the case (and shows several of earth's defences). They were at best in sector 001.
This is also retconning DS9 where Martok says the Klingons have never dreamed or dared to attack Earth.
You're exaggerating what he said. The line was "We must give the enemy credit. To launch an attack against Starfleet Headquarters. Even my people never attempted that. We've learned one thing about the Breen today, Captain. They're a race of warriors."
That's not really the same thing as saying they didn't dream of attacking earth.
, why in hell didn't they show this with the Klingon houses like they actually flat out PROMISED they will?
The actor playing Kol said that in August, it wasn't a promise from on high. It's possible that was an angle which faded with rewrites etc. Probably for the best, enough disparate storylines as it was.
 
They literally promised they would explore all the different houses. They promised the canon violations would be explained. When asked why the Klingons look this way, they were like "All the Klingon houses look different and we will explore that". Wow they wore some different clothes, such difference and we totally got to see more than ever before the Klingon Houses fleshed out! Thats totally what the question meant (when everyone with a brain was like ... why don't they look like ENT, TOS or TNG/TMP Klingons?)

The flat out lied. There was never any explanation for anything, they just completely redesigned the Klingons, explained nothing and we got the most shallow representation of Klingons in Trek yet.

Like everything to do with this show, the producers and writers just lied out of their ass over and over again. This is one of the major reasons fans aren't buying Prime timeline, because the writers and producers have just not stopped lying about addressing canon and Discovery's place in Star Trek.


The look is not a violation. They explianed away the spore drive and cloacking, everything else works fine. They never promised 4 klingon races, they never promised racist 1960s brown face.

They promised to clear up the two so called violations and did. They promised each house to have its own look, and they did.

They never promised what you wanted.
 
I posted this the other week when the New Enterprise debuted...


The design is an apt distillation of the show's approach to canon and why I find it all frustrating.

I find the whole "sort of canon" approach of the show tiresome. They should just shit or get off the pot. Either go full on reboot or stick to canon properly within the confines of modern abilities. What I mean by that is I do accept that some things would have to be updated. I get that. But there is necessary updating and then there is just playing with shit for the sake of it. This Enterprise looks nice. It's vastly superior to the JJPrise. But the showrunners have made a rod for their own backs by insisting this is prime universe, and in that respect some things just don't fit. Case in point, why go to all the effort to make the ship largely faithful, such as the deflector dish and strobing bussard collectors, but then just randomly add different shaped pylons, impulse engines and fancy extensions near the shuttle bay? It's such an inconsistent approach, like how they go to the effort of designing props like the phasers, with a clear TOS influence that would make sense, and then just shit the bed with the Klingons. The Klingons could be made to work in canon with such little effort. All it would take would be to show different species and have a few hairy Klingons in the background. Job done. Same with The Enterprise. This ship and the level of detail could've been just the way it is and yet retained the original shaped pylons, impulse engines, etc. There is nothing old fashioned looking about them with the updated surface detail and certainly no more out of date than the bussard collectors. The whole thing comes across as little more than "because we can" and I find it all a bit sad given the efforts of the previous Trek spin offs to fit together as seamlessly as possible.

Discovery in so many ways gives with one hand and takes with the other. If they want to piss around with things then they should just be honest and do full reboot on instead of telling those of us who enjoy canon, and the remarkably consistent world the franchise was until now, that this somehow all fits in, when it clearly doesn't.

It's clear to me that effort is being made by the writers to stick to canon and make things fit, but that those responsible for the visual look of the show are more interested in a reboot. It's almost as if there is an internal conflict within the production staff as to what the show should be, prime universe or a loose reboot.

What remains disappointing to me are the changes that are unnecessary. I have heard all the arguments over and over again from the Discovery can do no wrong crowd and I am still not convinced. As some have said over the past few pages, there are simply things that are flat out inconsistent that don't need to be. As I said in the quoted post, while I accept there is an argument for some updating things like the surface detail of the Enterprise, why randomly change the pylons when the original Enterprise design is perfectly fine with just a little bit more surface detail? You don't need to change the pylons for any other reason than doing it for the sake of it.

Same with the Klingons. Redesign them all you like, just include the other Klingons occasionally in the background as other species in the Empire. Job done. It then fits with canon easily. The redesign stays, but those fans who care about continuity have a satisfactory explanation. Same with their ships. Just include one or two Klingon ships that carry a bit of design lineage from previous shows and then you've bought a licence to otherwise introduce completely new designs. But no, instead we get some generic sci-fi abomination directly called a D7. It's so annoying.

Then there are things like the uniforms. They would make sense if they were half way between Enterprise and TOS, but with it in the Cage era why not at least try to make them more of a cross between the two eras, rather than something that is a clear visual contrast with the era (and you just know if we see Enterprise characters they'll likely have a version of them rather than something more Cage like)? Why go to all the trouble to design things like phasers that would make sense continuity wise as direct predecessors of the TOS phaser and then otherwise make pointless and necessary glaring errors elsewhere? At least you can still give a canon explanation for the uniforms right now, but you know once we see an Enterprise officer in one that'll pretty much throw any canon argument out of the window and be another glaring canon violation.

Two things about this whole debate pisses me off. The first is the fact that the showrunners have constantly insisted that its all prime universe and fits canon - and worse still that as the show goes on canon inconsistencies will be ironed out. This is a blatant lie. It's been a lie since they first uttered it and it remains one now and the canon inconsistencies are becoming greater, not less. Like someone said above it feels like a broken promise. I think some of us would be more tolerant if they were just honest about their intentions and then we'd have expectations in line with what we've been told. As much as I am very mixed on the Kelvin films, at least Abrams went to the trouble of providing an in universe explanation that allowed for canon changes and was honest about it so you knew what you were getting going in. With Discovery you are expecting one thing and getting another, which just leads to disappointment and frustration if canon matters to you.

Second element that pisses me off are some of the fans who like the show and don't care about canon or continuity. Why? Because they keep telling those of us that do care about canon and continuity that they don't care and it doesn't matter. Well, if it doesn't bloody matter why to they expend so much energy trying to convince us that it doesn't? Sure, some arguments make sense. You can't have TOS sets complete with dayglo colours and cardboard walls. I get that (although you could have sets that are more TOS influenced so it has some lineage). But it's when they start making arguments to defend unnecessary changes, like the subtle changes to the Enterprise, and the Klingon redesign that gets my goat. If they don't care about continuity and canon why are they even trying to make a case for the changes? But they do anyway. And so we get some of the most ludicrous arguments for unnecessary cock ups like the D7 mess because these people feel it is their personal mission to convince us we are either people who should not like an element of the franchise we should like, or even more offensive, that we are old farts stuck in the past. These people are welcome to not care about canon and continuity. That is their right. But if they were in any way honest they would accept that those of us that do have been let down with some of the decisions made and claims offered by the showrunners.If they don't care about canon then it should not be a big deal with them to acknowledge that. Also, why do they need to make a counter argument for changes? If, again, they say they don't care about continuity, then by default it should not matter to them if a D7 looks a bit more like a Klingon Battle Cruiser and not a mini Imperial Star Destroyer because, ya know, they don't care! If there is no option to change things then I will swallow it. But when changes aren't necessary I really don't need to hear some BS rationalisation for it and I don't need to be spoken to as if I am committing a crime every time I use the words canon or continuity.

The bottom line is that just a little bit of effort here and there from the showrunners to make it all fit together a little bit better doesn't do anybody any harm. It doesn't stop them telling their stories. It doesn't harm those fans who say they don't care and it has the added benefit of making things fit together a little bit better for those of us who value the hard work put in by previous people to work on the franchise to try and make things fit together as much as possible. How can that be anything other then a more preferred scenario?
 
Thing is, the existing canon is such a mess that you can’t rationalise it all together in to one consistent whole. There are inconsistencies and gaps in logic, so it’s a hiding to nowhere to try to adhere to it all.

And Discovery is doing a good job of pulling what there is together. It is adhering to canon, it is honouring and expanding upon the existing lore.

For every canon violation in discovery, I could probably point at ten ‘facts’ that are readily overlooked in the interest of consistency.
 
Thing is, the existing canon is such a mess that you can’t rationalise it all together in to one consistent whole.
Rubbish. 80-90%, if not more, of past Trek canon fits together well, which is a huge achievement considering how much of it there is. Yes, there are some inconsistencies, which is to he expected with the sheer volume of content, but the more obvious and overt stuff fits together nicely.

And Discovery is doing a good job of pulling what there is together. It is adhering to canon, it is honouring and expanding upon the existing lore.
Again, this is rubbish. It is not adhering to canon for the reasons, inter alia, I and others have set out above.

For every canon violation in discovery, I could probably point at ten ‘facts’ that are readily overlooked in the interest of consistency.
Be my guest. One of my complaints above is that the show tries to be consistent one five minutes and then throws canon out of the window the next.
 
Yeah, that is how retcons work.
Oh? So if any particular story isn't referenced on-screen for a handful of episodes of a future series, it's implicitly dropped from the continuity? No, that is really not how retcons work.

The augment story was unnecessary fanwank of the highest order. The pinnacle of what was wrong with ENT's fourth season.
You mean, ENT's only watchable season? The only thing wrong with it was that finale episode where Berman and Braga came back and pissed all over everything.

It's clear to me that effort is being made by the writers to stick to canon and make things fit, but that those responsible for the visual look of the show are more interested in a reboot. It's almost as if there is an internal conflict within the production staff as to what the show should be, prime universe or a loose reboot.
This. Absolutely. I've been thinking this pretty much all season long. The result is an approach that seems tailor-made to frustrate the maximum number of people.

Second element that pisses me off are some of the fans who like the show and don't care about canon or continuity. Why? Because they keep telling those of us that do care about canon and continuity that they don't care and it doesn't matter. ... If, again, they say they don't care about continuity, then by default it should not matter to them if a D7 looks a bit more like a Klingon Battle Cruiser and not a mini Imperial Star Destroyer because, ya know, they don't care! If there is no option to change things then I will swallow it. But when changes aren't necessary I really don't need to hear some BS rationalisation for it and I don't need to be spoken to as if I am committing a crime every time I use the words canon or continuity.
Word.

Thing is, the existing canon is such a mess that you can’t rationalise it all together in to one consistent whole. There are inconsistencies and gaps in logic, so it’s a hiding to nowhere to try to adhere to it all.
I emphatically disagree. The Trek continuity actually holds together with a remarkable degree of consistency. But to the extent that it does have internal conflicts, obviously any new show should do its best to improve upon that, not to exacerbate it.

And Discovery is doing a good job of pulling what there is together. It is adhering to canon, it is honouring and expanding upon the existing lore.
I'll go with "emphatically disagree" again here. As described above, it seems to be playing both ends against the middle, apparently due to different agendas behind-the-scenes that we can only guess at.
 
Oh? So if any particular story isn't referenced on-screen for a handful of episodes of a future series, it's implicitly dropped from the continuity? No, that is really not how retcons work.

Yeah, it is. Case in point. TOS states women are not captains, ENT and DSC ignored that. They did not address that bit of stupid, they flat out ignored it, so retconned it.
 
Yeah, it is. Case in point. TOS states women are not captains, ENT and DSC ignored that. They did not address that bit of stupid, they flat out ignored it, so retconned it.
TOS did not ever state such a thing. That impression stems from a deliberate misreading of one line of dialogue in "Turnabout Intruder."

Moreover, you're conflating "ignore" with "contradict." ENT and DSC have flat-out shown female captains... so if TOS had established what you say (again, it didn't), that would be explicitly contradicting it.

Merely ignoring a past story is not equivalent to retconning it. After all (as should be self evident), any new story ignores the vast majority of past stories, and references events from them only insofar as they're specifically relevant. (Which is not unlike how we live our actual lives.) If a new story adds new information that casts new light on past events, or perhaps even contradicts them, that's a retcon. But silence is not contradiction. If it merely leaves things ambiguous, then audiences try to reconcile things in a way that leaves all stories intact as much as possible... the goal of a coherent continuity is to minimize contradictions, not maximize them. (Much like the way a court will do its best to reconcile the holdings of past cases, even seemingly disparate ones, and will only overrule something if it's unavoidable.)
 
Moreover, in context, it makes sense that Lester was talking about Jim Kirk's personal world being focused on commanding a starship, and having no room for a permanent relationship in his life... which fits everything we know about him... not Starfleet's world of formal policies having no room for women, which would flagrantly defy long-running themes of the show.
 
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That's kinda the raison d'etre of this whole thread. Thus far the PTB have been insisting that it's not a reboot, while treating it like it is... trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Yup. Visuals change, larger story beats and characters don't.

The thread asks "Do I still think it fits in Prime?" My answer is "Yes." I see no reason to change it thus far.
 
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