Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[Tosk]

Visuals can change in fiction, even with in the continuity of that fiction. They are updated to make them relevant to modern times. Or because the people in charge have decided that what they want them to.

I doubt many people would disagree. But we're talking about things that have been set for a long time, and not only that but backed up by later shows maintaining the look. They wanted to do a prequel but they didn't want the look. Fair enough, but then you gotta take the gripes too. Change is fine. We've had an updated look almost every new series so far, but none of them definitively acted like "It was ALWAYS this way". The Klingon look is the most dicey one, but even then it was never canon that TMP Klingons were exactly the way they supposedly really looked in TOS.

Actually Gene Roddenberry suggested in the novelization of TMP that what we saw in TOS was a dramatization and not an accurate representation of what happened.

Gene suggested a lot of things we all choose to ignore.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Maybe Gene Roddenberry is no longer considered canon.

 

[XCV330]

It's a TV show, not a radio show or a novel or a stageplay. The visuals are part of the lore.

Prior to DSC, nobody would ever even have suggested otherwise. The degree of doublethink about this is really amazing to me.

So we then agree that the Cage era is entirely in black and white?

 

[Jesse1066]

Maybe Gene Roddenberry is no longer considered canon.

Technically, he never was.

So we then agree that the Cage era is entirely in black and white?

Nah, not entirely. It goes back and forth from scene to scene!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Technically, he never was.

Doesn't his name appear on several ship dedication plaques?

 

[Jesse1066]

Doesn't his name appear on several ship dedication plaques?

Okay, technically "Admiral Gene Roddenberry" is canon. And particularly long-lived.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I doubt many people would disagree. But we're talking about things that have been set for a long time, and not only that but backed up by later shows maintaining the look. They wanted to do a prequel but they didn't want the look. Fair enough, but then you gotta take the gripes too. Change is fine.

I don't think everyone agrees "change is fine". And I'm all for griping about the changes that you don't like because the design is poor or similar reasons. But a lot of what I;'m hearing is "I don't like it because it's change."

We've had an updated look almost every new series so far, but none of them definitively acted like "It was ALWAYS this way". The Klingon look is the most dicey one, but even then it was never canon that TMP Klingons were exactly the way they supposedly really looked in TOS.

Ah, but up until that infamous line in DS9, we were expect to believe that Klingons looked like the TMP/TSFS/TNG versions. When we met Klingons from TOS they were the ridge versions and not the humans with bushy facial hair version.

 

[Tosk]

Ah, but up until that infamous line in DS9, we were expect to believe that Klingons looked like the TMP/TSFS/TNG versions.

Maybe we were...but where in the shows/movies was that ever stated, or even implied? Obviously a character was never going to say, "Klingons have always looked the same as they do now, and always will!" but nothing about the redesign precluded story elements from previous adventures the way the Disco ones do. I wouldn't be surprised if Discovery one day even tries to fill the gaps a little like ENT did. Maybe when a new showrunner takes over.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Maybe we were...but where in the shows/movies was that ever stated, or even implied? Obviously a character was never going to say, "Klingons have always looked the same as they do now, and always will!" but nothing about the redesign precluded story elements from previous adventures the way the Disco ones do. I wouldn't be surprised if Discovery one day even tries to fill the gaps a little like ENT did. Maybe when a new showrunner takes over.

When Kor, Koloth and Kang showed up all bumpy. Kahless too. That pretty much said this is how Klingons have always looked.

As fans we made up all sorts theories about the different Klingons. I recall making a map of the Homeworld ( they hadn't called it Q'oNos or even Kronos yet) and assigning each make up variation a different geographic region. That was my take. DS9 ruined that, twice.

Not sure which story elements have been precluded by DISCO.

 

[Tosk]

When Kor, Koloth and Kang showed up all bumpy. Kahless too. That prtetty much said this is how Klingons have always looked.

Fair point. Theories abounded, but the show never hinted that they had changed since TOS.

Not sure which story elements have been precluded by DISCO.

For me, it's the (my) inability to reconcile how the Klingons look with story elements from other series that require them to not look that way. Without sign that they may still retcon it, the Klingons can't "always have looked like this" without breaking older stories. But then, despite what I said earlier I doubt they'll ever fill the gaps. It's easier for them to just forge ahead. Klingons may change, but the Enterprise is here to say that stuff definitively looks different now. Unless it gets a "smooth it all out" refit in the next few years.

 

[fireproof78]

When Kor, Koloth and Kang showed up all bumpy. Kahless too. That pretty much said this is how Klingons have always looked.

As fans we made up all sorts theories about the different Klingons. I recall making a map of the Homeworld ( they hadn't called it Q'oNos or even Kronos yet) and assigning each make up variation a different geographic region. That was my take. DS9 ruined that, twice.

Not sure which story elements have been precluded by DISCO.

Stupid production staffs ruining Star Trek with their stupid stupidness!!!!

 

[WebLurker]

Visuals can change in fiction, even with in the continuity of that fiction. They are updated to make them relevant to modern times. Or because the people in charge have decided that what they want them to.

In this franchise updates have fairly consistently been chalked up to passage of time or different eras and recreations of previous eras were faithful to the original designs. Excusing the Abrams movies (which did invoke the parallel universe trope as a rationalization) Star Trek has never had such a revisionist look at itself, much less gone out of it's way to deliberately create discrepancies and undermine it's own internal consistency, and thus, the suspension of disbelief it has previously afforded.

What's amazing to me is the resistance to change by fans of a Science Fiction show that in theory is about change.

A.) That's not how this franchise operates and B.) The Powers That Be are trying to have their cake and eat it too (we get lip service that canon is being considered important but in practice it's shown to be anything but).

Actually Gene Roddenberry suggested in the novelization of TMP that what we saw in TOS was a dramatization and not an accurate representation of what happened.

Roddenberry also declared his book to be non-canon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In this franchise updates have fairly consistently been chalked up to passage of time or different eras and recreations of previous eras were faithful to the original designs. Excusing the Abrams movies (which did invoke the parallel universe trope as a rationalization) Star Trek has never had such a revisionist look at itself, much less gone out of it's way to deliberately create discrepancies and undermine it's own internal consistency, and thus, the suspension of disbelief it has previously afforded.

They're taking a different approach. Probably one that's long over due.
Come on now, the introduction the the new Klingon make up was a major revision. And the intent was very clearly "That's how Klingons have always looked". And you know what we got used to it. Trek been undermining it's own internal consistency since day two. Always revising and refining things. And doing so in a very deliberate manner.

A.) That's not how this franchise operates and B.) The Powers That Be are trying to have their cake and eat it too (we get lip service that canon is being considered important but in practice it's shown to be anything but).

Not sure what your answer has to do with what you quoted. There is a large segment of fans that balk at any alteration, update or change in the franchise. I've seen it with TMP, with TNG, with ENT and now with DISCO. They want it to exactly like they remember. Which to me is a death knell for the franchise. For the franchise to truely survive it needs to reflect and respond to the present. It's can't look like a 60's show with a 60's attitude written and filmed in a 60's style and thrive.

Roddenberry also declared his book to be non-canon.

He did?

 

[andoriankush]

Just finished discovery. Pretty disappointed. It is crystal clear to me this is NOT canon. I think Roddenberry would be very upset with this show. And I believe diversity went backwards with discovery.

Sonequa the actor is a bright spot. But her character is uninteresting and unrealistic.

The show has been radicalized. I should have known it was doomed after Fuller walked. It effectively broke continuity with the previous universe. You need someone with the ancestry to continue the vision. CBS killed the bloodline and sold out for money.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

The story was intended to show why Klingons went from all-bumpy headed in ENT to all-smooth in TOS. Then along comes DSC, set inbetween with all-bumpy rebooted Klingons. Does not compute.

Haven't you ever had one of those nights where you partied really, really, really hard, and the next morning (amidst a horrible hangover) truly regretted all the embarrassing things that happened, and hoped -- prayed --- that everyone would just forget about it? That's how the Klingon Augment story should be treated.

 

[Nerys Myk]

ust finished discovery. Pretty disappointed. It is crystal clear to me this is NOT canon. I think Roddenberry would be very upset with this show. And I believe diversity went backwards with discovery.

Backwards????? The cast is lead by a black woman. A gay man is playing the first gay character in Trek. Another character is played by a Anglo-Pakistani actor. Reoccurring guest stars included a gay black man and Chinese woman.

The show has been radicalized. I should have known it was doomed after Fuller walked. It effectively broke continuity with the previous universe. You need someone with the ancestry to continue the vision. CBS killed the bloodline and sold out for money.

What the hell does "radicalized" mean in this context? Or "ancesty" for that matter. Star Trek has always been about making money. It's not a charity.

 

[lawman]

Haven't you ever had one of those nights where you partied really, really, really hard, and the next morning (amidst a horrible hangover) truly regretted all the embarrassing things that happened, and hoped -- prayed --- that everyone would just forget about it? That's how the Klingon Augment story should be treated.

No, that's how VOY's "Thresholds" should be treated. ENT's "Affliction"/"Divergence" story holds up just fine.

Honestly, I really don't understand the antipathy some fans have for that story. I remember seeing one post from somebody that just came right out and said it was stupid for the writers to offer an explanation for a long-standing question like that, and it would've been better to leave it forever unexplained. Apparently a continuity in which things make sense is somehow an affront to some people's sensibilities.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, I really don't understand the antipathy some fans have for that story. I remember seeing one post from somebody that just came right out and said it was stupid for the writers to offer an explanation for a long-standing question like that, and it would've been better to leave it forever unexplained. Apparently a continuity in which things make sense is somehow an affront to some people's sensibilities.

That is not the only explanation as to why people are bothered by the story.

 

[XCV330]

I want to understand TOS Visual Realists. So its kind of like the Founding Fathers Constitutional interpretation, right? If it appeared on camera, it's canon? Visual Canon is a thing.

ok

I do love a nice hardwood floor. We need more wood on star trek ships. CLEARLY Discovery should be showing some wood, since it is visual canon (Errand of Mercy before the opening credits, though easier to see on the unremastered version, which we all know, is the King James Bible of TOS, and the only one with the loving blessing of Gene's Vision, except when he didn't think so anymore, amen)

With this in mind, how DARE they violate Gene's vision by not showing the Discovery is built of wood!

 

[Jayson1]

It isn't that you can't make changes to visuals only that the changes still need to feel like they are connected to what is already established on "TOS." I think of it like this. Imagine if the people who made the designs of "TOS" still wanted the same basic designs they came up with but they were doing this in 2017-2018 and had modern tech to make them come to life. You see changes in how the Enterprise-D and Voyager look but you still have connections such as the computer graphics still looking the same with same color schemes. The phasers and tri-corders are basically the same and the comm badge is basically the same as are the uniforms. Uniforms that when you think about it were first shown in season 3 of TNG in "Alligence" with the Bolian cadet.

You can modify a look and yet still make it feel like it seems natural to what we have seen before. If you want to make a big change then you could start by simply keeping the color schemes of the tech and uniforms the same but maybe make the bridge bigger with a second level. Change the chairs and make more sturdy railings. Using computer graphics instead if blinkies but make the graphics sort of feel like they are blinkies. Heck even the current uniforms wouldn't be so bad if they still used the colors of yellow,blue and red to show rank or if you are going with single color go with color scheme from "The Cage" instead of Blue and just make the uniforms have the same detail they currently have.

Jason