Who should be the antagonist for season 2?

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

Ennui.

Perfect. Because my ennui toward season 1 is at an all-time whatever.

 

[ChristopherPike]

A good helmet hides a multitude of sins.

 

[The Overlord]

Maybe I just misinterpreted your OP. It made me think you were thinking about this as if it was some comic book series and we needed to have a super-villain to be the antagonist across the entire season.

Dukat was the best Trek villain, bar none. He was far from the only antagonist in DS9 however (and he wasn't always an antagonist in the mid-period of the show). Discounting antagonists of the week, Kai Winn, Weyoun, the Female Changeling, and Micheal Eddington also played important roles at times. Probably over half of the shows either had an "antagonist of the week" or no antagonist to speak of. For example, It's Only A Paper Moon, The Visitor, Duet, In The Pale Moonlight, etc all lacked one, and were fantastic episodes.

I think you misread my OP, I am not saying you put a Skeletor character, who comes with a new wacky plot each week, I suggested a rival, that tries to beat the Federation at their own game. The Klingons used brute force to challenge the Federation, I am talking about a foe who guile and treachery to get ahead and this rival ship does not have appear in every episode. Different one shot villains or natural disasters or challenges, the main antagonist could drive the main plot, but different episodes could different challenges within, the rival is trying to gain allies, with the Discovery deals a natural disaster for an episode.

Heck season 1 of Discovery had more then one adversary, in different arcs.

All those DS9 episodes you mentioned did not exist in a vacuum, the Klingon War informed the Visitor, the Bajoran Occupation informed Duet and the Dominion War informed The Pale Moon Light, the villains impact is felt, even if they did not appear in the episodes themselves.

I thinknit could still work. I'm getting sick of the way its done these days.

How would that work though, without becoming like Voyager that ran the episodic formula into the ground and actions often did not seem to have consequences? Really, I think its bad exploring for the Federation to find planets and forget they exist next week, I would like see some these planets get developed, rather then having planet of the week style stories. Again Voyager killed my interest in episodic Star Trek, because they would usually hit the reset button and then the previous episode would hold no weight next week. You can't write TV like that anymore, especially on a streaming service.

Props to the OP for at least framing the question in terms of an "antagonist" rather than a "villain"... but I'm in the camp that says you don't really need one.

As Eschaton alluded... who is the antagonist in Game of Thrones? Who was the antagonist in The Wire? I mean, I love me some Buffy and some Arrow and other genre shows like that, but the notion that each season needs to have a "big bad" to defeat (or an escalating series thereof) is a tired formula that I could do without. If DSC really wants compete in the world of "prestige" TV, and to take advantage of its serialized, streaming format, it needs to move beyond those kind of tropes, and embrace the possibilities of a multifaceted ensemble, with different characters pursuing different motivations, each subjectively perceiving other different characters as "antagonists.".

If there are no antagonists in those shows, then what role does Joffrey, Ramsay, Marlo, the Greek, etc, play on those shows?

Hell, Babylon 5 pretty much did this over 20 years ago. Sure, there were always "the Shadows" lurking in the background, but fundamentally, the show was about a complex ensemble of characters representing different personal, cultural, and political interests, whose agendas toward one another regularly shifted as circumstances changed, with pretty much everyone seen as antagonistic by somebody else.

DSC came close to something this sophisticated with at least one character, Lorca, or seemed to... but then pissed it all away. Hopefully, next season it will lean into the possibilities, rather than away from them.

I agree you need stakes and challenges. That's not the same thing as saying you need an antagonist per se. What it means is that you need competing interests.

Here's an idea. From the very first Trek pilot 53 years ago, all the way up to the very latest episode, we've seen and heard about the Orion Syndicate lurking around the fringes of Federation (and other) space... but we've never really learned anything about it. How about introducing a major Orion trader, or warlord, or what-have-you, and a few of his allies and adversaries and so forth, and have these characters' agendas and actions come into conflict with the Discovery crew's on multiple planets they're trying to entice into the (now war-weary) Federation? (The ST:Vanguard series of novels had a subplot that ran along similar lines, mostly to pretty good effect.) It would be a great chance to explore the intricacies of interstellar politics in a way that Trek has seldom attempted in the past (but that has worked well on shows as varied as B5 and The Expanse), and would also provide fertile ground for ethical dilemmas and real-world allegories in the classic Trek mold.

That's pretty well what I am suggesting to happen. That is more or less what I wrote in the OP.

FWIW I think The Wire is arguably the best show in the history of television, but I also think its single weakest point was Marlo. He was the closest that show got to having a "villain," someone who was just irredeemably evil and seemed to have little motivation beyond being that way.

He served a plot point, showing the new generation of criminals is more ruthless then the previous one.

I also think Joffrey and Ramsay served plot points as well.

Some fictional character are irredeemable, Kilgrave from Jessica Jones did not to be redeemed at the end to be one of the best MCU villains.

Yes, a rival! (Or more than one.) That's what I'm talking about. That's not necessarily the same thing as an antagonist, and it's definitely different from a villain.

I am suggesting a ruthless rival though, one who uses treachery and murder to get ahead, you can't have real stakes with a toothless villain.

It probably wouldn't. That however doesn't mean I would label it at comedy when the comedic part aren't a overwhelming part of the show, especially the last couple of episodes where it really just turned into TNG with a handful of punchlines

I think if the Orville was not a comedy, Fox would not have made it. The rules for comedy and serious drama are different.

 

[TrekNut87]

Zombie NCC-1701 crew that lured Discovery with a faux distress call, lead by zombie Spock.

Oooh, and then Sonequa can teach all her crewmates how to manhandle zombies!

 

[Tom]

Oooh, and then Sonequa can teach all her crewmates how to manhandle zombies!

Jeffery Dean Morgan as the new antagonist, he should be mostly free, now that the war arc in TWD is ending.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

How would that work though, without becoming like Voyager that ran the episodic formula into the ground and actions often did not seem to have consequences?

Its all about the execution. Good episodes are good, crap ones are crap.

The ssrialized storyline thing has been beaten to death and doesn't promise good storytelling either. Jusy depends on how good a story you write.

I could see either way being good or bad, I would just prefer a less serialized story line. Not to say I'd be unhappy with either as long as it didn't blow.

 

[eschaton]

Its all about the execution. Good episodes are good, crap ones are crap.

The ssrialized storyline thing has been beaten to death and doesn't promise good storytelling either. Jusy depends on how good a story you write.

I could see either way being good or bad, I would just prefer a less serialized story line. Not to say I'd be unhappy with either as long as it didn't blow.

IMHO the key thing (which Discovery semi-blew) is to serialize the characters. Episodic plots are fine so long as there are B plots, character moments, and other small things which carry over from episode to episode.

Basically, don't pull a Voyager and have a "reset button." Understand the stories you tell now can have consequences years down the road. But don't feel the need to tie the entire season together into one massive arc. Space opera is all well and good, but without a master plan (like a novel to base it on) it will devolve into schlock.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

IMHO the key thing (which Discovery semi-blew) is to serialize the characters. Episodic plots are fine so long as there are B plots, character moments, and other small things which carry over from episode to episode.

Basically, don't pull a Voyager and have a "reset button." Understand the stories you tell now can have consequences years down the road. But don't feel the need to tie the entire season together into one massive arc. Space opera is all well and good, but without a master plan (like a novel to base it on) it will devolve into schlock.

Yeah, magic reset buttons are the worst.

Serialized plots are fine, non serialized ones are fine, a good story is good, a bad one is bad.

I just am getting tired on serialized stories these days is all.

 

[Jadeb]

IMHO the key thing (which Discovery semi-blew) is to serialize the characters. Episodic plots are fine so long as there are B plots, character moments, and other small things which carry over from episode to episode.

Basically, don't pull a Voyager and have a "reset button." Understand the stories you tell now can have consequences years down the road. But don't feel the need to tie the entire season together into one massive arc. Space opera is all well and good, but without a master plan (like a novel to base it on) it will devolve into schlock.

I'd really like to see a semi-episodic Trek with consequences. A planet visit might span three episodes, for example, but then have ongoing repercussions after that.

As a prequel, they're somewhat boxed in when it comes to universe-shattering stories like they tried to give us in the first season. That's almost inevitably going to end up feeling like a cheap cop out, because we know what comes after. But if the stories are a smaller scale, and more about the consequences for these characters than the UFP as a whole, they can do pretty much anything.

 

[eschaton]

I'd really like to see a semi-episodic Trek with consequences. A planet visit might span three episodes, for example, but then have ongoing repercussions after that.

As a prequel, they're somewhat boxed in when it comes to universe-shattering stories like they tried to give us in the first season. That's almost inevitably going to end up feeling like a cheap cop out, because we know what comes after. But if the stories are a smaller scale, and more about the consequences for these characters than the UFP as a whole, they can do pretty much anything.

Yeah. I posted awhile ago my idea for a "lowered stakes" Discovery. Everything they set out to tell about Burnham's character could have been done without making her personally responsible for either causing or resolving the Klingon War, considering how little they actually did with it. The emotional core of the story was that Burnham blew it and destroyed her career by betraying her captain and causing her to die. Discovery could have been some random science ship on the fringes of Federation space and they could have told that story just as well. Better honestly, because then they wouldn't have to waste so much time coming up with the "epic" elements of the story.

 

[Nyotarules]

Mirror Universe Borg.

Resistance ain't futile we just want you to join our club and beat those nasty Terrans/

 

[Rhodan]

Resistance ain't futile we just want you to join our club and beat those nasty Terrans/

Of course this would be refreshing, since it would mean that something is really essentially different in MU apart from Terrans, Ferengi, Bajorans and whoever happens to be one of the main characters of the series.

 

[Vger23]

It probably wouldn't. That however doesn't mean I would label it at comedy when the comedic part aren't a overwhelming part of the show, especially the last couple of episodes where it really just turned into TNG with a handful of punchlines

I think, more accurately, it turned into VOY with a handful of punchlines.

I like Orville just fine (watched every episode and was genuinely entertained for the most part), but it's an imitation (VOY) of an imitation (TNG) of an imitation (TOS). Replicative fading has definitely set in at this point.

 

[Vger23]

I think it would be cool if the "antagonist' was a competing organization or mixed society (maybe not even a government per se), rather than just a monolithic warlike alien culture. And I used the term "competing" there very carefully. I'd prefer an enemy like Baloq (again, in concept, not in execution) in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to another Klingon or Dominion type power...someone or something that is racing against time after the same goals as you are, with different designs on the prize.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I think, more accurately, it turned into VOY with a handful of punchlines.

I like Orville just fine (watched every episode and was genuinely entertained for the most part), but it's an imitation (VOY) of an imitation (TNG) of an imitation (TOS). Replicative fading has definitely set in at this point.

I loved the Orville too. I mean, I wouldn't watch MASH if it wasn't funny, its certainly not a dig but yeah, Orville does remind me more of Voyager than TNG.

I'd prefer an enemy like Baloq (again, in concept, not in execution) in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to another Klingon or Dominion type power....

I could totally see logic extremists being space Nazis

 

[Wulfsa]

Tholians or Breen would be nice...

 

[Hythlodeus]

I think, more accurately, it turned into VOY with a handful of punchlines.

nah, Orville is still solid entertainment. VOY was just uninspired boredom

 

[ChristopherPike]

He's back, and it's about time.

"Continuity errors? What continuity errors?!? Mwahahahaa-HAAAHAAA!"

 

[eschaton]

nah, Orville is still solid entertainment. VOY was just uninspired boredom

I've been winding my way through all of the Trek series in timeline order for the last few years. Ive gotten bogged down finishing VOY, where I still have half of the last season left. Not that there aren't occasional good episodes, but it's just so relentlessly stultifying I keep getting side-tracked into watching something else.

 

[the Sisko]

I would like to see the Betazeds be the main antagonists, with a sprawling Territory controlled with mind control/manipulation and without a prime directive.