Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[The Memetic Susurrus]

A T'Bonz notes, in that flashback to her childhood, when she clearly starts thinking back to the attack and freaking out, Sarek is basically an inconsiderate dick to her - even if it's because as a Vulcan, he just can't grok what she's going through.

Maybe she received treatment later, but she was supposed to be in an irrational, agitated state after she got back from the EVA encounter with the torchbearer. I definitely remember fanon at the least at that time (some on this forum) claiming was showing PTSD.

I agree that she did not show any after the pilot, so this may have been a Fuller idea which was dropped.

Intrusive memories--flashbacks--are one of eight criteria for a confirmed diagnosis of PTSD. Also, intrusive memories are not necessarily pathological. People of normal mental health have them all the time (have you ever had a memory flash into your mind after you've smelled or tasted something? Well, that's an intrusive memory and perfectly benign.). By DSM-5 standards (and, admittedly, that is likely to've changed a bit in the intervening centuries, but probably not so dramatically as to be unrecognisable), she does not appear to have most of the criteria for PTSD.

It is possible she did have PTSD, but it was treated. Said treatment did not, necessarily, have to be at the hands of the Vulcans. I'm sure there are plenty of humans and other species (Andorians might be a closer match, emotionally, for the human personality) on Vulcan and/or Vulcan colonies/outposts. She might, therefore, be in remission, with only the occasional sub-syndromal symptom showing up from time to time.

Or it is possible that she never had any mental disorder at all. Remember, most traumatic events don't cause Acute Stress Disorder or PTSD. It's something of a trope that extreme stress leads to a stress or anxiety disorder.

 

[fireproof78]

Or it is possible that she never had any mental disorder at all. Remember, most traumatic events don't cause Acute Stress Disorder or PTSD. It's something of a trope that extreme stress leads to a stress or anxiety disorder.

She probably has unspecified trauma disorder at this point, if that is still a Dx.

 

[lawman]

Fans, over thinking it as usual, took the scene with teenage Burnham and the way adult Burnham acted after the encounter with the Torchbearer, and drew the conclusion that adult Burnham was suffering from PTSD, when this was never established on screen...

I'm kinda curious about the attitude implicit in this sentence, and in particular the highlighted phrase. What does "overthinking it" mean when applied to a work of fiction?

I mean, Trek fans on these forums certainly aren't subjecting the show to the kind of detailed exegesis that a scholar would, but they do offer a wide variety of insightful interpretations. Your post seems somewhat disdainful of that. Should we limit ourselves strictly to the most obvious surface-level, face-value interpretation of what's shown on screen? Should good fiction not be complex enough to offer layers of meaning and subtext, material for more thoughtful analysis and interpretation?

Long story short, I think a common theme in a lot of criticisms of DSC over the course of the season has been that the show's actual writers are UNDERthinking what they put in the episodes... often just connecting plot points and dramatic beats by the most direct means available, without really considering the implications in terms of character, theme, continuity, and so forth. (It's far from the only show to do this. Even Game of Thrones has been guilty of much the same over the past couple of seasons, since it went past GRRM's books and the storytelling pace accelerated noticeably.)

It's hardly unreasonable for viewers to expect more.

 

[gblews]

I'm kinda curious about the attitude implicit in this sentence, and in particular the highlighted phrase. What does "overthinking it" mean when applied to a work of fiction?

I meant that the fans tend to come up with the wildest most convoluted explanations, conclusions, etc, which are usually way out of line with what the writers intended, whether one likes what the writers intended or not. The belief that adult Burnham suffers from PTSD without any on screen evidence is a prime example.

 

[Jack Watkins]

Jammer's review is up, you guys. It's a good read.

It's cool that Jammer is still around (I mean, wow, he goes back a long ways), but I miss Timothy W. Lynch. I wonder what he thinks of Discovery.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, Trek fans on these forums certainly aren't subjecting the show to the kind of detailed exegesis that a scholar would, but they do offer a wide variety of insightful interpretations. Your post seems somewhat disdainful of that. Should we limit ourselves strictly to the most obvious surface-level, face-value interpretation of what's shown on screen? Should good fiction not be complex enough to offer layers of meaning and subtext, material for more thoughtful analysis and interpretation?

I wonder who is doing that?

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

She probably has unspecified trauma disorder at this point, if that is still a Dx.

It is but, as with earlier versions of the DSM, it's generally used as a provisional Dx pursuant to a more comprehensive clinical work-up.

Heh, a thought had occurred to me, though. She might not have PTSD but she might have Reactive Attachment Disorder, inadvertently manifested as a result of having been raised on Vulcan by a Vulcan stepparent. An interesting thought but I presume Amanda had a role in ameliorating any deleterious impact that might've had on Michael's psyche. Still, worth noting. She shows some evidence of a dismissive-avoidant attachment style so that might be an issue, too.

Still, I think it's more likely she's probably within normal range. At the extremes of normal range in some areas but, given that behaviour's a spectrum... Her unique--well, unique as far as we can tell (though, given the billions of sentients involved, there are probably other humans that have been raised by Vulcans or other aliens over the years)--background is a confound. I'm sure she's probably made quite a few personality psychologists a proverbial mint in trying to map out what, exactly, is her "normal."

 

[Jack Watkins]

Nonetheless, the best Voyager episodes, almost without fail, are the character focused ones. This is why most people tend to love the Seven and Doctor shows which became more common as the series drew to a close - they were played by the best actors, were the most complicated characters, and thus got the most story focus.

This is probably a discussion for the Voyager forum, but what the hell. I love Bob Picardo, and The Doctor is by far the most entertaining character on the show, but some of his episodes were a little stilted. A lot of scenes were too zany and tried too hard to be funny, or whatever Berman-era Trek accepted as Gene Roddenberry approved humor.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As I've said in the past, the third episode made it clear that Tilly was one of several people who worked on the spore drive with Stamets. Those extras have never been seen again, but presumably some or all of them outranked her as a cadet.

You're seeing or trying to create a problem that doesn't exist. DISCO's writing has 99 problems, but it's use of Tilly ain't one.

 

[eschaton]

This is probably a discussion for the Voyager forum, but what the hell. I love Bob Picardo, and The Doctor is by far the most entertaining character on the show, but some of his episodes were a little stilted. A lot of scenes were too zany and tried too hard to be funny, or whatever Berman-era Trek accepted as Gene Roddenberry approved humor.

I think all of the later Treks (hell, arguably even TOS to an extent with Nimoy) occasionally threw out "actorly" episodes. That is to say, once the writers knew they had a great performer, they would push to write episodes with the actor's range in mind, rather then the character in question. This basically meant finding some in-story excuse to get the actors to not act their part (mirror universe, possessed by alien entity, holodeck simulations, Data playing is brother/father, etc). Sometimes this resulted in great episodes, but you couldn't get away with it in a modern serialized show.

 

[fireproof78]

It is but, as with earlier versions of the DSM, it's generally used as a provisional Dx pursuant to a more comprehensive clinical work-up.

I meant in Trek future I looked it up in the DSM-5 before posting that.

I mean, the APA could be gone by that point.

 

[cooleddie74]

DISCO's writing has 99 problems

And that was just in the season finale.

[Ed McMahon] HEYYYY-O!!! [/Ed McMahon]

[Johnny Carson] This audience is tougher than overcooked Space Whale! [/Johnny Carson]

 

[XCV330]

I think all of the later Treks (hell, arguably even TOS to an extent with Nimoy) occasionally threw out "actorly" episodes. That is to say, once the writers knew they had a great performer, they would push to write episodes with the actor's range in mind, rather then the character in question. This basically meant finding some in-story excuse to get the actors to not act their part (mirror universe, possessed by alien entity, holodeck simulations, Data playing is brother/father, etc). Sometimes this resulted in great episodes, but you couldn't get away with it in a modern serialized show.

Yeoh did

 

[fireproof78]

And that was just in the season finale.

[Ed McMahon] HEYYYY-O!!! [/Ed McMahon]

[Johnny Carson] This audience is tougher than overcooked Space Whale! [/Johnny Carson]

Please stop...

 

[cooleddie74]

 

[lawman]

And that was just in the season finale.

[Ed McMahon] HEYYYY-O!!! [/Ed McMahon]

[Johnny Carson] This audience is tougher than overcooked Space Whale! [/Johnny Carson]

Okay. Anybody want to feel old? Just ponder: it's been twenty-six years since Johnny Carson went off the air.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Okay. Anybody want to feel old? Just ponder: it's been twenty-six years since Johnny Carson went off the air.

If you really want to feel old...

I'm a full grown adult, married for over a decade, and I never even saw Johnny Carson on the air.

 

[unimatrix7]

It's cool that Jammer is still around (I mean, wow, he goes back a long ways), but I miss Timothy W. Lynch. I wonder what he thinks of Discovery.

True! For me, it's not Star Trek unless there's a Jammer review to read at the end of it. He's part of the ritual.

What about The Cynic, though? His bitter and acerbic reviews still crack me up. I feel like he would've eviscerated Disco...but then, he did that to everything

 

[Jack Watkins]

Okay. Anybody want to feel old? Just ponder: it's been twenty-six years since Johnny Carson went off the air.

 

[Jack Watkins]

True! For me, it's not Star Trek unless there's a Jammer review to read at the end of it. He's part of the ritual.

What about The Cynic, though? His bitter and acerbic reviews still crack me up. I feel like he would've eviscerated Disco...but then, he did that to everything

Yup! He was good! Remember when Ashley Edward Miller did Star Trek reviews? I think he's the same guy who became a screenwriter on Fringe and The Sarah Connor Chronicles.

It truly was a golden age of thoughtful Trek criticism. Back when the Internet still felt new-ish